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  • #16
    Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
    Lighting and War - that both are related much more - I would even say on the same level as Ravens and Death, symbolicly.
    But they're not though

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    • #17
      Spirits that take on the roles of 'Gods' don't have to be Magath. Take the lake spirit for example, instead of an ancient spirit of a lake that takes on new aspects to match the worship of humans along its shores, that worship generates resonance that gives rise to a new spirit that embodies all of those aspects from its inception. Which then feeds upon the resonance of human worship until it grows strong enough to either force the older spirit to make room or else just eats the older spirit.
      ​Most if not all of the artificial spirits would be Magath if they hadn't originally formed that way. Lightning and information had nothing to do with each other, until the invention of telegraph wires.
      ​As for lightning and war? Create a ray gun that shoots lightning to fry your enemies, use it enough times and now you have a spirit that links lightning with war.

      ​My question for Wyrd, and it depends entirely on the role the spirit is intended to play in the chronicle, is does the spirit have to have those human like traits the people ascribe to it, or will the chronicle work just as well if the spirit of the lake is really just the spirit of the lake that the humans mistakenly ascribe human like traits to?

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      • #18
        Originally posted by lnodiv View Post
        But they're not though
        Well, only if you don't count blitzkrieg

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        • #19
          Originally posted by 2ptTakrill View Post
          Spirits that take on the roles of 'Gods' don't have to be Magath. Take the lake spirit for example, instead of an ancient spirit of a lake that takes on new aspects to match the worship of humans along its shores, that worship generates resonance that gives rise to a new spirit that embodies all of those aspects from its inception. Which then feeds upon the resonance of human worship until it grows strong enough to either force the older spirit to make room or else just eats the older spirit.

          ​Most if not all of the artificial spirits would be Magath if they hadn't originally formed that way. Lightning and information had nothing to do with each other, until the invention of telegraph wires.
          EXACTLY what I think here! Mixed Influances =/= Magath

          It can simply be evolution of concepts in Shadow Realm.

          Originally posted by 2ptTakrill View Post
          ​As for lightning and war? Create a ray gun that shoots lightning to fry your enemies, use it enough times and now you have a spirit that links lightning with war.
          Or invoke name of Jupiter with his Lighting symbol in battle enough times.

          Originally posted by 2ptTakrill View Post
          My question for Wyrd, and it depends entirely on the role the spirit is intended to play in the chronicle, is does the spirit have to have those human like traits the people ascribe to it, or will the chronicle work just as well if the spirit of the lake is really just the spirit of the lake that the humans mistakenly ascribe human like traits to?
          Spirit Gods do not need human traits - they still are inhuman spirits of their Influences. They just have right mix of Influences that work with mortal stories to ascribe them to local myth about pagan god. Whole Spirits Gods idea is that they are Spirits first, 'dressing up' according to mortal myths second. So yeah, our spirit of lake would be first spirit of the lake, getting unusual Influences be centuries on the post.


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          • #20
            Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
            Werewolf line ( and CoD universe at large ) assumes that Spirits are ‘animalistic’ spiritual reflection of the concepts.
            Animistic spiritual reflections of concepts, not animalistic. The reflections of animals are animalistic, but not all spirits are.

            https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animism


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            • #21
              This seems to have deviated into a variety of thread, everyone should know what magath are and what causes them, if not it's thoroughly detailed in the books. Obviously there are weird exceptions but that doesn't seem relevant to the topic.

              Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
              So how popular is practice of local Spirits to mask as avatars of gods from mortal myths?
              The question is far too broad. Are you talking about in general in modern times, where mortal myths are different than those of ancient Rome? You can look to Night Horror's Mockingbird to see how urban legends, modern myths, have spawned in the wake of a spirits actions. Are you talking about ancient Roman myths, which may have been spawned by spirits to begin with? Spirits of power enough that they can speak with humans don't need to pretend. If an ocean spirit rises up and demands veneration, why should it have to call itself Neptune? If asked, 'are you a god?' It, a powerful being of the ocean, would likely respond yes, even if it wasn't necessarily Poseidon, looked like him, or knew who he was.

              The Maters wanted specific worship. In this case they co-opted existing gods because of Rome's pre-existing Grecian-derived Pantheon, which may have originated from spirits in the first place. I'd expect that, as 'house spirits' and magath they have some deceit to them, as well, which has encouraged their guise. Pretending to be something they aren't is explicitly called out as 'their natural ways' that they're forgetting, which implies that it is as uncommon as what went on in Rome. But these things happen. And it's probably more common the more myths and deceit spirits you throw into the picture.
              Last edited by nofather; 05-17-2017, 12:21 AM.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by nofather View Post
                This seems to have deviated into a variety of thread, everyone should know what magath are and what causes them, if not it's thoroughly detailed in the books. Obviously there are weird exceptions but that doesn't seem relevant to the topic.
                Could you explain what you mean here? Probably that we all have constant definition of Magath, but I'm not sure from your wording.

                Originally posted by nofather View Post
                The question is far too broad.
                Okay, let's hammer it in more detail in responses here. I will bold main questions and thoughts.

                Originally posted by nofather View Post
                Are you talking about in general in modern times, where mortal myths are different than those of ancient Rome?
                I talk about both Dark Eras stuff and modern era games, as I literally run mixed timeline chronicle on this. I would posit that modern era Spirit Gods still works more or less like those centuries before, as their are still sustained by the local myths/legends and 'worship' of population. It’s surely a lot less than millennia ago, but telling stories about gods and myths at campfire is still source of Essence for those ancient spirits. Think a lot like worship of Old Gods is in American Gods ( book or TV series ), minus whole ‘human-like’ natures of them.

                Originally posted by nofather View Post
                Are you talking about ancient Roman myths, which may have been spawned by spirits to begin with?
                Okay, let's assume that mortal myth of Jupiter is coming from powerful Spirit of Lighting in Rome, that Spirit of Lighting was there on the beginning of human settlement. What does it change that worship now called 'Jupiter'-Spirit is feed by the mixed Resonance of Lightings and, for example, War, now?

                Originally posted by nofather View Post
                Spirits of power enough that they can speak with humans don't need to pretend. If an ocean spirit rises up and demands veneration, why should it have to call itself Neptune? If asked, 'are you a god?' It, a powerful being of the ocean, would likely respond yes, even if it wasn't necessarily Poseidon, looked like him, or knew who he was.
                Notice: I will change Spirit of Ocean to Spirit of Lighting in your example, as on beginning they fulfill the same purpose – but later we have clearer examples of mixed Influences from mortal myths with Jupiter than Neptune.

                So we got Spirit of Lighting - he shows up to mortals, they call him Jupiter. But then he hides in Hisil for few decades or centuries, and mortals are worshiping him as Jupiter. Spirit all the time is feed Essence from their worship. Mortals add their own dogma to cult, adding other Resonance/Essence flavors to worship - let's assume Sky, and adding Eagle as his favorite animal then. Does Lighting and Sky Influences are too weird to combine, that they end with Magath? I don’t think so, it sounds to me like natural evolution of our Spirit-‘Jupiter’.

                ‘Thunderbirds’ Aquila maybe are true Magath ( because Eagles with Thunders are not real thing in Material World ), but our Spirit-‘Jupiter’ with Lighting and Sky Influences surely should not be – they are very close concepts.

                If we go with Spirit-‘Neptune’ – he started as Ocean Spirit. Then cult grew and added Fortune Influence, as sailors asked for good fortune on their voyages to him. Is it weird for Spirit of Ocean to get Influences of Fortune this way? I still do not think so, but could see arguments for both sides.

                Originally posted by nofather View Post
                The Maters wanted specific worship. In this case they co-opted existing gods because of Rome's pre-existing Grecian-derived Pantheon, which may have originated from spirits in the first place. I'd expect that, as 'house spirits' and magath they have some deceit to them, as well, which has encouraged their guise. Pretending to be something they aren't is explicitly called out as 'their natural ways' that they're forgetting, which implies that it is as uncommon as what went on in Rome. But these things happen. And it's probably more common the more myths and deceit spirits you throw into the picture.
                So every Spirit-‘God’ of Hisil need Deceit Influence to hold on to their 'dress up'?


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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post
                  Animistic spiritual reflections of concepts, not animalistic. The reflections of animals are animalistic, but not all spirits are.

                  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animism
                  I fully understand that Spirits, as general concept, are working as 'Dark Animism'. I only point out that each particular spirit works more like 'animal' of the concept they reflect - they want to be 'feed' ( by Essence ), want's to cannibalize other spirits of it's concept, etc.
                  Last edited by wyrdhamster; 05-17-2017, 02:46 AM.


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                  • #24
                    wyrdhamster post your definition of magath please.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Malus View Post
                      wyrdhamster post your definition of magath please.
                      Magath - Spirit of contradicting Influences, coming from two or more Choirs at once. NOT Magath is, for example, ( from this conversation ) Mud Elemental with Influences of Water and Earth, as he still will be 'natural' in Material World. Magath IS Spirit of Trees and Cars, as those things do not work in nature and even myths. But like 2ptTakrill pointed - changes in Material World CAN make possible previous Magath in to Non-Magath ( like in Telegraph example, few posts above ).
                      Last edited by wyrdhamster; 05-17-2017, 05:27 AM.


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                      • #26
                        The thing about roman magath spirits liking themselves as deities is that yes, different cults existed to different aspects of the same deity and sprang their own spirits, which later those spirits ate one another when their only relation was a name. No, invoking some made up name before you perform an action isn't enough on it's own to link that action with the name (unless you're Awakened, but I digress). War has nothing to do with lightning, naturally speaking, or fortune with tides, or beauty with light, or night-time with witchcraft.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Malus View Post
                          No, invoking some made up name before you perform an action isn't enough on it's own to link that action with the name
                          wyrd, I believe this is the fundamental point where your and our ideas differ from. As I said before, the type of gods you're looking for (gods who are shaped by humanity) are Goetia of the Temenos, not spirits of the Hisil.



                          When Hisil-born spirits get to play godhood, they don't steal names from mortal mythologies. They are their own source of mythologies, and they demand worship in accordance to it. The Thunderer need not identify itself as Thor, Indra, or Zeus to be a god of lightning. It's the humans who attributed such names to it. So when you ask whether it's popular for spirits to mask themselves as avatars of gods from mortal mythos, the question should be backward. The real question is how popular the practice of naming the wild gods of the Shadow as the familiar gods of human mythologies is.

                          The Maters are an exceptional case where they did define themselves according to human worship, rather than making humans worship them for what they are, because they had a pretty good gig going on with the Uratha (and insidious manipulation by an idigam). And a large number of them suffered Magath-dom, thanks to the mix of Resonances.



                          It also doesn't help that you're lumping all (Roman) deities as either a set of examples that prove your case or deny it. Jupiter and Neptune, for example. If we conclude that the Lightning-Sky spirit named Jupiter by humans is natural (as in, non-Magath), does that mean the Ocean-Fortune spirit named Neptune by humans is also natural? Of course not, logically speaking.

                          Now, are those two spirits, Jupiter and Neptune, really the Roman gods themselves? No. Are they worshipped as such by humans? Likely yes. Do the spirits themselves believe themselves as the Roman gods? Depends on how much the spirit's psyche has been warped by all the worship and Essence. Will the spirits keep claiming themselves to be the Roman gods or their aspects so they can continue to gather worship? Hell yeah.


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                          • #28
                            IF

                            Originally posted by Malus View Post
                            No, invoking some made up name before you perform an action isn't enough on it's own to link that action with the name (unless you're Awakened, but I digress). War has nothing to do with lightning, naturally speaking, or fortune with tides, or beauty with light, or night-time with witchcraft.
                            THEN this

                            Originally posted by Malus View Post
                            The thing about roman magath spirits liking themselves as deities is that yes, different cults existed to different aspects of the same deity and sprang their own spirits, which later those spirits ate one another when their only relation was a name. ​
                            Is not really relevant. Let's look over your interpretation, on our favorite example - Jupiter.

                            Jupiter had those 'domains' in it's cult that correspond most of the time to particular Influences:
                            • Lighting
                            • Sky
                            • War
                            • Justice ( from Sacred Oaths )
                            Each one of those Resonances/Influences spring up his own version of Jupiter - so we have Lighting!Jupiter, Sky!Jupiter, War!Jupiter & Justice!Jupiter spirits. If all four meet in one building, they could work as 'proper' mortal Jupiter. But now they are created all on their own, in separate temples.

                            NOW comes Imperial unification of cults. Jupiter is instantly worshiped as Lighting AND Sky AND War AND Justice in the very same temple. I say that our previous, for example, Justice!Jupiter will evolve and add Lighting, Sky & War Influences, coming from mortal worships generating appropriate Essence.

                            You say each one of Influences spring it's own 'Jupiter' version and those four, in each particular temple, will fight so only one will remain, with all 4 Influences.

                            End result is the same - we have Spirit!Jupiter that has Lighting, Sky, War and Justice Influences, in each mortal temple.

                            The same thought experiment can be made for Neptune and his Water and Fortune Influences.
                            Last edited by wyrdhamster; 05-17-2017, 06:44 AM.


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                            MtAw 2E - History of Awakened - (almost) canonical game timeline of events
                            WtF 2E - Alternative werewolves myths from around the world

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
                              IF



                              THEN this



                              Should not be possible. Let's look over your interpretation, on our favorite example - Jupiter.

                              Jupiter had those 'domaines' in it's cult that correspond most of the time to particular Influances:
                              • Lighting
                              • Sky
                              • War
                              • Justice ( from Sacred Oaths )
                              Each one of those Resonances/Influnaces spring up his own version of Jupiter - so we have Lighting!Jupiter, Sky!Jupiter, War!Jupiter & Justice!Jupiter spirits. If all three meet in one house, they could work as 'proper' mortal Jupiter. But now they are all on their own, in seperate temples.

                              NOW comes Empirial unification of cults. Jupiter is instantly worshiped as Lighting AND Sky AND War AND Justice in the very same temple. I say that our previous, for example, Justice!Jupiter will evolve and add Lghiting, Sky & War Influnaces, comming from mortal worships generating appropiate Essence.

                              You say each one of Influances spring it's own 'Jupiter' version and those four, in each particular temple, will faught so only one will remain, with all 4 Influnaces.

                              End result is the same - we have Spirit!Jupiter that has Lighting, Sky, War and Justice, in each mortal temple.

                              The same can be made for Neptune and his Water and Fortune Influances.
                              And so the remaining spirit named Jupiter becomes Magath, but a relatively stable one thanks to continued supply of Essence that perfectly matches its hodgepodge Resonance.


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                              • #30
                                Look, I'm not saying that Spirits become Magath by taking the mantle of gods.
                                I'm saying that the only example we have of that are insane Magaths.
                                You don't become insane by pretending to be a god, you have to be insane to try it.

                                Also, from all the depictions in Dark Eras, they did a REALLY bad job of it.


                                Honestly, we have one example of it, and it's going on about how the spirits were insane, abnormal, and eventually taken over by an Idigam.

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