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Spirits as Pagan Gods

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  • #46
    Well, I'm just pitty that reading books as written you cannot have shiny things like Spirits that want to dress up as Mortal myths Gods - cause they will be insane quickly.


    My Hubs - MtAw 2E Legacies and System Hacks & WtF 2E Lodges and System Hacks
    MtAw 2E - History of Awakened - (almost) canonical game timeline of events
    WtF 2E - Alternative werewolves myths from around the world

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    • #47
      Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
      Well, I'm just pitty that reading books as written you cannot have shiny things like Spirits that want to dress up as Mortal myths Gods - cause they will be insane quickly.
      That such would be the case is just a device to implement conflict. Which is adequate with the setting as written. If you'd like to change the setting to comform to your personal views, I recommend you stop putting that much stock in the RAW.

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      • #48
        Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
        cause they will be insane quickly.
        You say that as if gods from Myth don't regularly act crazy :P

        Also, couldn't one of the effects of their insanity cause them to not only go "I'll eat this faith these mortals mistakenly keep giving my via sacrifices because they think I'm Zeus" but instead slowly start to go "I am Zeus!!!"

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        • #49
          Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
          Well, I'm just pitty that reading books as written you cannot have shiny things like Spirits that want to dress up as Mortal myths Gods - cause they will be insane quickly.
          A spirit doesn't necessarily need to feed on the other essence that is associated with a god. A storm spirit could imitate Zues and ignore the patriarchal essence which would likely be eaten by another spirit claiming to be Zues. Of course a spirit imitating god is more likely than usual to go Magath, but it doesn't have to.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
            Well, I'm just pitty that reading books as written you cannot have shiny things like Spirits that want to dress up as Mortal myths Gods - cause they will be insane quickly.
            As I said, it's not that they'd become insane by dressing up as gods, it's that they'd have to BE insane to do it.

            If you want myth-style gods, there is plenty of space for that in the Astral and the Underworld. Werewolf, however, is a lot more primal as a game, and they don't really fit here.

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            • #51
              My open goal here is to make plausible for local Spirit God dressing up as Myths God to work as leader of local Hisil Court. With 'We must kill Magaths whenever they are' of Tribes of Moon, it's not very possible in characters settings...

              Originally posted by milo v3 View Post
              You say that as if gods from Myth don't regularly act crazy :P
              Fair point here.

              Originally posted by milo v3 View Post
              Also, couldn't one of the effects of their insanity cause them to not only go "I'll eat this faith these mortals mistakenly keep giving my via sacrifices because they think I'm Zeus" but instead slowly start to go "I am Zeus!!!"
              This really golden! Did not thought about Magath insanity being they believe the ARE Myths Gods themselves.

              Originally posted by Xenorath View Post
              A spirit doesn't necessarily need to feed on the other essence that is associated with a god. A storm spirit could imitate Zues and ignore the patriarchal essence which would likely be eaten by another spirit claiming to be Zues. Of course a spirit imitating god is more likely than usual to go Magath, but it doesn't have to.
              Hmmm, this Influnace spliting can go in to nice Fake!Zues and his Fake!Muses, for example. This could also work...


              My Hubs - MtAw 2E Legacies and System Hacks & WtF 2E Lodges and System Hacks
              MtAw 2E - History of Awakened - (almost) canonical game timeline of events
              WtF 2E - Alternative werewolves myths from around the world

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              • #52
                Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
                My open goal here is to make plausible for local Spirit God dressing up as Myths God to work as leader of local Hisil Court.
                There are plenty of gods that do not have as many conflicting ideas. The Roman and Greek gods, however, were particularly human and specifically had aspects of themselves that went against their obvious nature. Mars and his association with plant life, for instance.

                With 'We must kill Magaths whenever they are' of Tribes of Moon, it's not very possible in characters settings...
                Again, that's not a thing.

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by nofather View Post
                  There are plenty of gods that do not have as many conflicting ideas. The Roman and Greek gods, however, were particularly human and specifically had aspects of themselves that went against their obvious nature. Mars and his association with plant life, for instance.
                  Okay, I run Viking and Modern Era chronicle with Norse gods. From my read of Norse Mythology ( by Neil Gaiman ) Aesir are more simpler gods in those Myths, than Roman or Greek ones. Would they work better as Spirit Gods local 'dress up'?

                  Originally posted by nofather View Post
                  Again, that's not a thing.
                  So Magath are not instantly Hunt down? Because if Magath'dom is not 'political label', then any Uratha will probably sense it over the spirit...


                  My Hubs - MtAw 2E Legacies and System Hacks & WtF 2E Lodges and System Hacks
                  MtAw 2E - History of Awakened - (almost) canonical game timeline of events
                  WtF 2E - Alternative werewolves myths from around the world

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Azahul View Post
                    Well, only if you don't count blitzkrieg
                    You can't, because that is literally a human concept.


                    Sean K.I.W. Steele, Onyx Path Freelancer
                    Working on:Night Horrors: Enemy Action
                    The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
                      Okay, I run Viking and Modern Era chronicle with Norse gods. From my read of Norse Mythology ( by Neil Gaiman ) Aesir are more simpler gods in those Myths, than Roman or Greek ones. Would they work better as Spirit Gods local 'dress up'?
                      Depends on the god, and what people are going to them about. I think they were more singularly focused, though I know Odin had multiple domains like most father gods. They tend to evolve as the society goes on. Generally if someone goes up to a spirit, offers it what it wants, it's not going to matter if they get the name wrong.

                      So Magath are not instantly Hunt down?
                      They're appreciated as a danger due to their rampant hungers, but no. That would be really hard to do anyways and lots of werewolves don't focus on the spirit. Even the ones that do tend more towards diplomacy with them, the Bone Shadows being about 'paying each spirit in kind.' Not 'annihilation of all spirits.'

                      Because if Magath'dom is not 'political label', then any Uratha will probably sense it over the spirit...
                      It's not a 'political label.' Magath aren't part of an umia but you can't just detect that. Mechanically and in-world it's hard to tell exactly what a spirit is unless you're Ithaeur. Investigation and help from other spirits would be a big way to figure it out. Though some might just look weird, like a wolf with eagle wings made of lightning, or a dog made of circuit boards that drools acid.

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                      • #56
                        I'm going to be honest here, it seems like the issue is entirely on your end. The example given of spirits masquerading as human gods gives rise to magath. If you want to have a little norse pantheon of spirits then go right ahead for your local game instead of trying to reinterpret the entire setting to fit that premise.

                        2e seems to be trying to stick to its guns on how each of the various realms operates differently instead of the Shadow just being a catch all for any concept a storyteller might have, but if you want to ignore that for your local game then yeah alright. More power to you. Hope you and your players have fun.

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
                          So Magath are not instantly Hunt down? Because if Magath'dom is not 'political label', then any Uratha will probably sense it over the spirit...
                          Wyrd, the Dark Era that prompted this discussion had multiple magath with werewolf support. About half of the Tribes of the Moon have tenets of the Oath that a magath can easily be associated with, but the common challenges one faces are almost all drawn from their natures shifting to be less choosy about their meals and most of the rest of the spiritual world shunning them as a result.

                          Magath is a political label in the sense that spirits are political creatures by nature and spirits have a general sense for each others' natures. This does not materialize as werewolf hit squads being sent out to the desolate locales of a panicked feeding frenzy just because there's now a big hungry monster lairing in its Shadow that's not choosy about what it eats, nor does it translate to any old multifaceted spirit getting declared magath in some kind of ephemeral witch hunt.


                          Resident Sanguinary Analyst
                          Currently Consuming: Changeling: the Lost 1e

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by milo v3 View Post

                            Also, couldn't one of the effects of their insanity cause them to not only go "I'll eat this faith these mortals mistakenly keep giving my via sacrifices because they think I'm Zeus" but instead slowly start to go "I am Zeus!!!"
                            This is golden


                            MtAw Homebrew: Even more Legacies, updated to 2E

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                            • #59
                              So, wait - If our Myth based Spirit will act nicely to other Spirits and do not eat everything around him -
                              He will not be hunted? He even can rule local Hisil Court? Even if he IS technically a Magath?

                              Whole take of 'Spirits Gods based on Myths will become insane' is pitty for me as we also cannot have things like Thunderbird spirits ruling in America Hisil. Or our Slavic gods dress ups in Dark Era about christanization of Poland - even if in Wrocław setting in 2E corebook, Field of Dogs - is direct pointing that Slavic demons ARE spirits of Hisil.


                              My Hubs - MtAw 2E Legacies and System Hacks & WtF 2E Lodges and System Hacks
                              MtAw 2E - History of Awakened - (almost) canonical game timeline of events
                              WtF 2E - Alternative werewolves myths from around the world

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
                                So, wait - If our Myth based Spirit will act nicely to other Spirits and do not eat everything around him -
                                He will not be hunted? He even can rule local Hisil Court? Even if he IS technically a Magath?
                                They'll likely have to rely on proxies or build a lot of capital in the local Shadow to have their reach extend further than their presence, since becoming magath is generally both shameful and irreversible, but yes, sufficiently powerful hybrids who got to where they are out of order with the way things are supposed to go can in fact rule a unit of spirit society defined entirely by the powerful ruling over those weaker than them.

                                Whole take of 'Spirits Gods based on Myths will become insane'
                                The "take" is "spirits sincerely claiming to be specific mythological entities are not 'thinking' in line with the reality of their situation and thus would be considered insane even by the skewed standards of spirits." That's not "spirits being based on human gods makes them go insane," that's "spirits thinking they're human gods is a sign they've lost sight of what they are."

                                is pitty for me as we also cannot have things like Thunderbird spirits ruling in America Hisil.
                                This has literally always been the case — the Shadow takes cues from human mythology but has never purported to be the singular origin of those figures. None of this stops spirits resembling the Thunderbird from being the strongest Diharim on the Great Plains.

                                Or our Slavic gods dress ups in Dark Era about christanization of Poland - even if in Wrocław setting in 2E corebook, Field of Dogs - is direct pointing that Slavic demons ARE spirits of Hisil.
                                Wyrd, the use of familiar names for spirits that share a resemblance to the folkloric entities in no way constitutes a claim that a given being is a spirit in the Shadow.


                                Resident Sanguinary Analyst
                                Currently Consuming: Changeling: the Lost 1e

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