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Spirits as Pagan Gods

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  • wyrdhamster
    started a topic Spirits as Pagan Gods

    Spirits as Pagan Gods

    Werewolf line ( and CoD universe at large ) assumes that Spirits are ‘animalistic’ spiritual reflection of the concepts. However, in Forsaken by Rome Dark Era, we have direct pointing that local Spirits like to ‘dress up’ as close to mortal gods as possible, to feed on Essence of local worship humans do on similar concepts. Here is quote about this:


    Originally posted by Dark Eras Companion – Forsaken by Rome, page 59
    Rome’s Hisil began no differently than anywhere else’s. Rome’s Triumphs fed the spirits on victory, pride, and con*quest. King Numa quelled the laresriotous hunger with a steady supply of spirits ensnared by his boundary stones. The lares grew fat and complacent, most becoming Magath. The most powerful among them, the Maters, took the names and forms of Rome’s gods. It seemed that Rome would forever remain ascendant, and the spirits forgot their natural ways.
    So how popular is practice of local Spirits to mask as avatars of gods from mortal myths?

  • ArcaneArts
    replied
    Originally posted by Spellfire22 View Post
    What about Azar and Esit from Mummy: the Curse? Are they powerful Shadow spirits, or are they some other sort of being entirely?
    They are something else altogether.The closest bearing they have to other gamelines might be entities from the Underworld or Goetia, but that somewhat falls apart when you consider the notion that, if any gameline actually has rights to cosmological supremacy, it's Curse and it's grand mythology.

    Or put more simply, they're probably just gods, devoid of the other contexts in the Chronicles world.

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  • Malus
    replied
    Originally posted by nofather View Post
    How is a Rank 6+ spirit not a 'true god'?
    Maybe from a monotheistic point of view they aren't. They otherwise virtually are in scope.

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  • 21C Hermit
    replied
    Originally posted by Spellfire22 View Post
    What about Azar and Esit from Mummy: the Curse? Are they powerful Shadow spirits, or are they some other sort of being entirely?
    They're one of those beings that don't fit in neatly into a category, even if we do not discount the divinity of spirits.

    We see a bit about Anpu the Nameless Jackal in Dark Eras Companion from a non-Mummy (well, Mage) perspective, and he simultaneously registers as a Supernal being, an Underworld native, and an acathartos all at once. And even then, neither of those categories feel correct or complete. Azar and Esit are likely in a similar state of existence as of now, whatever they used to be.

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  • nofather
    replied
    Well, there are a lot of different powerful beings out there. Angels, spirits, demons, Pangaeans, Abyssals and Supernals, things that are rare and few enough they lack any real name. I don't know much about Mummy but they could be spirits. I think some lean towards Mummy-stuff being Abyssal.

    Viewing spirits as not 'true gods' seems to be an unfortunate perspective around here, it has been since first edition, one of the first threads I saw was one complaining about the Crone potentially being a spirit and not a 'real god.' I'm sure the idea would be instantly rejected by some.

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  • Spellfire22
    replied
    What about Azar and Esit from Mummy: the Curse? Are they powerful Shadow spirits, or are they some other sort of being entirely?

    Leave a comment:


  • nofather
    replied
    How is a Rank 6+ spirit not a 'true god'?

    Leave a comment:


  • Spellfire22
    replied
    Originally, my theory was that the Chronicles of Darkness universe did not have any true gods, and that all gods were actually spirits pretending to be gods. Further research, specifically into Mummy: the Curse and Forsaken by Rome, convinced me that I was wrong.

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  • Malus
    replied
    Originally posted by Iguazu View Post

    What if, even demons were spirits as well? Do it make sense that a supreme-being, who created billions upon billions of galaxies each with billions of stars in them chose a desert-tribe, in a region that existed within a blink of geological and astronomical-time on a planet in an obscure-region of space to be its chosen-people and to carry it's message?

    The supernatural is nothing more than man's interpretations of them. If a person wants to believe they are being, "Haunted", by demons because they coveted thy neighbor's goods*, then that's their interpretations (or perhaps, the spirits simply troll humans by making them think they are incarnations of their particular religious-beliefs like in Stephen King's Children of the Corn).
    Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
    That's neither how the game works nor what I was getting at? I mean, some crossover in how people view these disparate things as one and the same, but not wholly the point.
    Ditto what Arcane said, but that's a good premise for a mortal game, where they have next to no inbuilt tool to know what the ever-living-crap is haunting them. (When they start thinking it's say, a spirit, turns out it's a horror that behaves like a devolved Beast, for example)

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  • ArcaneArts
    replied
    Originally posted by Iguazu View Post

    What if, even demons were spirits as well? Do it make sense that a supreme-being, who created billions upon billions of galaxies each with billions of stars in them chose a desert-tribe, in a region that existed within a blink of geological and astronomical-time on a planet in an obscure-region of space to be its chosen-people and to carry it's message?

    The supernatural is nothing more than man's interpretations of them. If a person wants to believe they are being, "Haunted", by demons because they coveted thy neighbor's goods*, then that's their interpretations (or perhaps, the spirits simply troll humans by making them think they are incarnations of their particular religious-beliefs like in Stephen King's Children of the Corn).
    That's neither how the game works nor what I was getting at? I mean, some crossover in how people view these disparate things as one and the same, but not wholly the point.

    Leave a comment:


  • Iguazu
    replied
    Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
    Oh yeah, I forgot to get back around to the encounter thing, and even removed that mention. Okay, so with that said, we need to mention one thing that utterly muddles the pool- the demon, demon, demon, and demon problem. Or the beast, beast, beast, and beast problem, if you'd rather..
    What if, even demons were spirits as well? Do it make sense that a supreme-being, who created billions upon billions of galaxies each with billions of stars in them chose a desert-tribe, in a region that existed within a blink of geological and astronomical-time on a planet in an obscure-region of space to be its chosen-people and to carry it's message?

    The supernatural is nothing more than man's interpretations of them. If a person wants to believe they are being, "Haunted", by demons because they coveted thy neighbor's goods*, then that's their interpretations (or perhaps, the spirits simply troll humans by making them think they are incarnations of their particular religious-beliefs like in Stephen King's Children of the Corn).

    Leave a comment:


  • ArcaneArts
    replied
    Oh yeah, I forgot to get back around to the encounter thing, and even removed that mention. Okay, so with that said, we need to mention one thing that utterly muddles the pool- the demon, demon, demon, and demon problem. Or the beast, beast, beast, and beast problem, if you'd rather.

    So I mentioned that humans sometimes tell stories based on what they actually encounter. These things include Shadow spirits, of course, so sometimes humans get an accurate picture as that goes. Of course, not everything they meet is a Shadow spirit. Sometimes they come across Abyssal demons, faeries, God-Machine angels, Empyrean angels, goetia, ghosts, Supernal entities, Amkhata, Pandorans, Stirx, the Arisen, qashmallim, Horrors, Horrors, Horrors, and a vast number of weirdnesses asides that don't fit into larger schemes.

    The average Flesh-Dweller either doesn't have a good grasp on how to tell the difference between a fire spirit, a Geist emerged from immolation , a salamander, an Arisen using Revelations of Smoke and Fire, a God-Machine angel cloaked in fire, a Divine Fire Angel that is fire, a Supernal Aetheric Seraphim expressed as fire, or a fire goetia-hell, they don't even know all of that exists as possibilites. More likely, they'll understand in the terms they know best, the lens provided by their culture which will ultimately stem from their culture's history and environment. This problem holds true even for werewolves, where it's easier for them to handle the fire-thing if they treat the nail like a spirit they understand rather some screwy other thing. And all those things and their particular weirdnesses go on and inform the future language and iconics that any Flesh-dweller uses that fits in the category.

    Long story short, lots of things look like other things and people call these things the wrong names all the time. That it's often close enough for horseshoes and hand grenades does not mean that they are actually right, or that such names or appearances actually mean anything substantial. The reason the Chronicles world is one of mystery is because 90% of the connections are completely coincidental.

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  • ArcaneArts
    replied
    We're coming across the too-much importance of names things that happens a lot with....well, as an example, we saw this problem with the "The Herd Must Not Know-Questions" thread. Namely, we have the continued failure to recognize that names and iconography can, in fact, walk right past each other and not have anything to do with one another.

    From the Flesh side of things, sentient, storytelling races like humans and werewolves can, have, and will come up with stories to explain the things they come across. THe way these stories form is, yeah, sometimes informed by what they actually encounter, but is also just as often filled in by imagination, usually centered around the icons important to the storyteller. Given that it's a wide world and that both narrative and Shadow-spiritual evolution will be heavily determined by the environment both exist in, it becomes increasingly likely that the appearance of spirits will end up matching stories told, and as such end up calling those spirits by the names they came up with. THis doesn't mean they have any bearing on each other-humans don't decide the shape and name of spirits because both of those things operate on the Shadow's own independent and intertwined rules of predacity and evolution. Humans just see the world in accordance to the lens they've made for themselves, and if a spirit finds it serviceable, then why the fuck not use it.

    From the Spirit side of things, spirits are the products of their environment almost exclusively, and their forms and names tend towards the more literal incarnations. Sure, the more spirits of more abstract feelings, ideas, and systems that come from humans might be be painted in iconography and words that humans provide, but even then Spirits derive more from the thing itself than from how humans perceive it-consider that a war spirit is a war spirit regardless of it being born from a human conflict or a meerkat conflict, or that a knife spirit can come from a knife that a corvid made. By and large, spirits just continue being themselves-but that said, they do invade the world of the Flesh from time to time, and interactions with Spirits yield stories rife with behaviors, weaknesses, and of course names. Spirits act in accordance to their nature, which should be easily determined if you get a chance to speak with it because their name is almost always an expression of their nature, of what they are. and in their relative simplicity a flesh-dweller can easily comprehend it-so much so that there are occasional risks of overcomplicating spirits just because the witness feels like they're missing something, it's so easy. Spirits aren't particularly concerned with people getting it right so much as they are with eating, so their points of edification are fuzzy and opportunistcally inspired in accordance to the demands of their stomachs.

    My grand point here is that yeah, spirits sometimes get called things by humans, and it fits with what humans have perceived, and sometimes spirits call things in the flesh world their own thing and it fits their own perception. Just as frequently, though ,the images and names provided by each side walk right by each other with no interaction. These are independently evolving and developing names, images, and stories on each side, and collisions of the two often lead to a mixture of fact and truth that no one cares to really untangle because their own view of things is often enough for them to deal with. Werewolves comes these cesspools of muddled information more frequently because that's the space they occupy, but spirits often don't give a flying fuck what humanity thinks, from a subjective standpoint and even from an "you guys often provide the food that is also our evolutionary base material/catalyst", so long as they eat.

    The Magath in Forsaken by Rome are an exception rather than the rule, and even that is the result of enough contradictory devourings that their thinking processes could bend enough to give a crap. For spirits who happen to end up aligning to what myths say about some other things, it's often a lucky quirk of the current state of ecosystem, one that they don't nessecarily attach importance to but have no problem exploiting if it means having an easy meal.

    Names and images mean less than you think in Shadow spirituality. The medium is only the message the simpler the medium is.
    Last edited by ArcaneArts; 05-19-2017, 06:11 PM.

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  • Spencer from The Hills
    replied
    It all looks rather chicken and egg to me, but it reminds of the spirit of Princess Diana from Shadows of the UK, formed of spirits of "grief and panic" that grew big and strong during the very public mourning after her death.

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  • Satchel
    replied
    Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
    So we have direct example in 2E materials of Spirit God dressing up as Myths God!
    Nobody has been saying this doesn't happen.

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