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[2E] Gathra & Social Manuvering

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  • [2E] Gathra & Social Manuvering

    To not resurrect ancient dead previous topics...

    I prepare interactions with spirits for my players. As I understand rules, spirit NEED to get Gathra first, before any real interaction with it can be made. What kind of Gathra can spirit demand? Actions fulfilling it's Ban? Classical 'you bring me a virgin'? Other Gathra ideas?


    My stuff for Scion 2E, CoD Contagion, Dark Eras, VtR 2E, WtF 2E, MtAw 2E & BtP
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  • #2
    In my interpretation, Gathra is just the name for any Soft Leverage offered to a spirit. Services and sacrifices would likely be acceptable Soft Leverage to a spirit, as might offerings of Essence be. The Supplication Rite is a great one as well.


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    • #3
      Offering Essence, preferably Resonant with the spirit. Creating circumstances which Resonate with the spirit, or eliminating circumstances that work against the spirit's Resonance. Getting rid of possible banes and ban sources in the vicinity. Sabotaging the spirit's rivals or predators. Punishing the spirit's subordinates that betrayed it. A window of free time in which the spirit may Manifest freely and affect the world of Flesh.

      Really, in the end it's all about Resonance and Essence, but there are many ways to get to that final goal.


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      • #4
        My characters prefers hard leverage. "You do this for me, and I don't bind you into this rock for the next thousand years."

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Malus View Post
          My characters prefers hard leverage. "You do this for me, and I don't bind you into this rock for the next thousand years."
          Ah! Sounds like an Ithaeur Bone Shadow, or possibly Storm Lord.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Seidmadr View Post

            Ah! Sounds like an Ithaeur Bone Shadow, or possibly Storm Lord.
            Bingo on the later one.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Malus View Post
              My characters prefers hard leverage. "You do this for me, and I don't bind you into this rock for the next thousand years."
              But spirits are literally metaphysically incapable of making deals without receiving Gathra first. You have to give them some Essence and then threaten them, or else you'll just end up with a lot of rocks with spirits bound to them.


              Onyx Path Forum Moderator

              My mod voice is red. I use it so you know when I'm speaking in an official capacity, not as an indication of tone.

              Going by Willow now, or Wil for short. She/Her/Hers.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post
                But spirits are literally metaphysically incapable of making deals without receiving Gathra first. You have to give them some Essence and then threaten them, or else you'll just end up with a lot of rocks with spirits bound to them.
                I don't think so. The core says that a few essence points is the minimum gathra without using hard leverage, implying that you can get them lower if you wanted to.

                I'm not terribly keen on it myself. I mean, spirits are so hardwired to this system that you have to use gathra, you can't persaude them to help you... Unless you're threatening them in which case the Spirits suddenly has freewill. That feels like it undermines the weird psychology of spirits a bit.

                I dunno, I can kinda see a justification maybe.


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                • #9
                  Oh yeah. Weird.


                  Onyx Path Forum Moderator

                  My mod voice is red. I use it so you know when I'm speaking in an official capacity, not as an indication of tone.

                  Going by Willow now, or Wil for short. She/Her/Hers.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Michael View Post
                    I don't think so. The core says that a few essence points is the minimum gathra without using hard leverage, implying that you can get them lower if you wanted to.
                    Two points of Essence is the bare minimum to convince a Rank 1 spirit to do something through the diplomatic channels represented by Social Maneuvering without Hard Leverage. Stronger and more hostile spirits explicitly require a higher tithe, and framing a negative task* as a favor doesn't make it gathra any more than saying you won't rob me makes me grateful to you for my having dinner that night.

                    * Saying you won't do something that's bad for me gives me nothing I wouldn't get by going underground and/or having you murdered in your sleep. Giving me a mildly expensive trinket and insinuating that I won't be in a position to receive such a nice present again if I don't do this thing you want me to do, if you catch my drift, etc, is closer to the proper vein of spiritual extortion than "I know the Fetish Rite and you have something I want."

                    I'm not terribly keen on it myself. I mean, spirits are so hardwired to this system that you have to use gathra, you can't persaude them to help you... Unless you're threatening them in which case the Spirits suddenly has freewill. That feels like it undermines the weird psychology of spirits a bit.
                    The spirit doesn't "suddenly have free will" when you're threatening them — you literally cannot apply Hard Leverage and Force Doors until you've made at least a minimal offer thanks to spirits being ephemeral bundles of compulsions who never do anything for free.


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                    • #11
                      On game session went with Gathra as trening to resolve spirits Ban - If it was worded as 'he need to do something at least once in this time'.


                      My stuff for Scion 2E, CoD Contagion, Dark Eras, VtR 2E, WtF 2E, MtAw 2E & BtP
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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
                        On game session went with Gathra as trening to resolve spirits Ban - If it was worded as 'he need to do something at least once in this time'.
                        But if the spirit's ban is indeed worded as "The spirit needs to (do something)" like you say, then I don't think someone else doing it wouldn't count. Helping the spirit fulfill its ban will still count, so I guess there's not much difference, but still.


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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by 21C Hermit View Post
                          But if the spirit's ban is indeed worded as "The spirit needs to (do something)" like you say, then I don't think someone else doing it wouldn't count. Helping the spirit fulfill its ban will still count, so I guess there's not much difference, but still.
                          In this particular instance we talked about Gefjun as spirit. In my write up, she has Ban as:

                          'Need to have sacrificed 'virginity' at least once per season. 'Virgin' may be killed, or just lose virginity in Lake Mälaren area.'

                          So one of PCs going to her for lose of his virginity was counted as Gathra.


                          My stuff for Scion 2E, CoD Contagion, Dark Eras, VtR 2E, WtF 2E, MtAw 2E & BtP
                          LGBT+ in CoD games

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post

                            In this particular instance we talked about Gefjun as spirit. In my write up, she has Ban as:

                            'Need to have sacrificed 'virginity' at least once per season. 'Virgin' may be killed, or just lose virginity in Lake Mälaren area.'

                            So one of PCs going to her for lose of his virginity was counted as Gathra.
                            A ban is something the spirit has must or must not do under the right conditions. Nothing about the one you've got for Gefjun serves as a compulsion that can be invoked to "put an end to whatever [she] is trying to do."

                            Your statblock gives her Possession (and not Fetter, oddly enough). She's a bodyjacking spirit with an agenda — that suggests a much more direct pattern of activity than contriving sacrifices.


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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post

                              In this particular instance we talked about Gefjun as spirit. In my write up, she has Ban as:

                              'Need to have sacrificed 'virginity' at least once per season. 'Virgin' may be killed, or just lose virginity in Lake Mälaren area.'

                              So one of PCs going to her for lose of his virginity was counted as Gathra.
                              Honestly, that sounds more like an Aspiration (and the Gathra being helping the spirit fulfill it) than a ban. A ban is something that impacts the spirit negatively. Is that Gefjun a real-life figure that exists somewhere in legends and myths?

                              EDIT: Silly me, should've searched it for myself. Turns out she's a pretty major deity! After a cursory reading on Wikipedia, I suggest she is a Rank 3-4 spirit with "Can only Manifest in an area that has been ploughed by a woman" as a ban, and "A plough owned by a farmer whose land yielded no bounty this year" as a bane. Not sure why Gefjun would be taking virgin sacrifices, though, since she looks more like a guardian of women and feminine power in agriculture.
                              Last edited by 21C Hermit; 05-20-2017, 04:23 AM.


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