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Demons and Pure Uratha

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  • #46
    Originally posted by nofather View Post

    I think it has to be a native tongue. First Tongue is the native language of spirits. There are people and spirits who can speak Latin but it's no one's native tongue.
    You're telling me that a spirit born off the notion of latin (which knew about it before having the presence of mind to speak first tongue) doesn't counts as a native? Alright then.


    Originally posted by Korogra View Post

    While that's a good point, sadly the Demons quantum linguistics program-power thing doesn't work that way, since a spirit of Latin would be like people who know Klingon, there might be a good number of them, but they do not count where this quirk of occult science is concerned.
    Not even Demons know how it works. Last I checked you didn't commanded the Word of God, and if so, provide a quote.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Malus View Post
      Pardon the off-topic, but the notion of spirits somehow counting to the population needed for Unchained to dominate a particular language, then they'd be able to speak dead tongues too. I find it difficult to believe that no law or knowledge spirit can't speak fluent Latin.

      I think that it has to do with the anthropo-centric character of all the WoD games, if it doesn't get on well with your campaign mood you can adjust this issue accordingly and allow other kinds of populations, like spirits or Fae, to make the logistic of a demon to add their language-es to their data store.
      But they should first have a first-hand experience with such encounters and take a note that there are indeed enough people out there who use the language, more like a nation, rather than like a Tolkien cult.
      Last edited by Story Letter; 06-28-2017, 04:27 PM.

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      • #48
        Originally posted by Malus View Post

        You're telling me that a spirit born off the notion of latin (which knew about it before having the presence of mind to speak first tongue) doesn't counts as a native? Alright then.




        Not even Demons know how it works. Last I checked you didn't commanded the Word of God, and if so, provide a quote.
        Do all spirits have Influence: Latin? No. The rules that apply to human languages logically would apply to spirits too.

        And I would... but I'm on my phone and don't have access to my copy of Demon, and while I don't have the Devs insight, I'm pretty sure they would possibly agree with me and nofather.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by Korogra View Post

          Do all spirits have Influence: Latin? No. The rules that apply to human languages logically would apply to spirits too.

          And I would... but I'm on my phone and don't have access to my copy of Demon, and while I don't have the Devs insight, I'm pretty sure they would possibly agree with me and nofather.
          Not all people speak Chinese either. What's the metric?

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          • #50
            A spirit with Influence: Latin may speak Latin, but it does so because it's gained the Influence of Latin. As a spirit, its native language is the First Tongue. The native language thing seems to be important, not whether or not people can speak it.

            Demon the Descent, p183, 'Demons only speak native languages, however. No one in modern times grows up speaking ancient Sumerian or Latin, despite the fact that some scholars might have enough skill with these languages to understand them. Likewise, while enthusiasts might develop enough facility with artificial languages such as Tolkein’s Elvish, no one speaks the language as a native. Demons can learn to speak such languages through study, but not through Natural Aptitude. By the same token, demons can use Natural Aptitude to speak First Tongue (the “native language” of spirits), but not High Speech (the mystical tongue of the mages, no longer in common or conversational use).'

            It goes further into some demons having theorized that if they raised a bunch of children on 'unavailable' languages those languages might become available to them, as the language would be native to someone.

            All that said, to risk further derailing, the Demon the Descent forum seems a better place to ask further questions.
            Last edited by nofather; 06-28-2017, 11:23 PM.

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            • #51
              Originally posted by nofather View Post
              A spirit with Influence: Latin may speak Latin, but it does so because it's gained the Influence of Latin. As a spirit, its native language is the First Tongue. The native language thing seems to be important, not whether or not people can speak it.
              Also, while there's that line in Book of Spirits about how "everything" has a spirit, that's more to do with the breadth of spiritual purviews than probable specimens — spirits draw from things but are not those things themselves, which means their substance is built out of the nature of their resonant phenomena rather than the pure abstraction of a named concept stamped into ephemera.

              Even assuming spirits of languages naturally arise, the realities of their development and conceptual resonance are such that by the time you get a spirit conversational enough to speak Latin it's passed the threshold for which this would be be considered a language it grew up with in human terms. You start out with a mindless being that has the spiritual qualities of the Latin language and the same instinctive understanding of First Tongue as everything born of the Shadow has, and by the time it's evolved into a Hursih it's either become something else or turned into an aggregated pile of those things that happens to have a shortcut to learning Latin; you won't hear the dozing landscape conjugating verbs if you listen in on the idle chatter of rivers and hills.

              It could be that there are spirits of languages and they're all hooked into that hypothetical deep-Shadow Infrastructure Demon posits might be responsible for the Unchained gift of tongues, but that's kind of a fundamental game-by-game setting decision to make.


              Resident Sanguinary Analyst
              Currently Consuming: Changeling: the Lost 1e

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              • #52
                I guess the reason why demons are fluent with First Tongue isn't because humanity is, but because First Tongue is their natural/real native tongue. Knowing the Mother-tongue of all languages seems like logical prerequisite to the purview of Natural Aptitude.

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                • #53
                  I think that people should house rule this depending on the needs of their campaigns.
                  As for my needs, I think its a good way to inroduce the demon to a pure pack without being hacked appart with the first glance.

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Story Letter View Post
                    I think that people should house rule this depending on the needs of their campaigns.
                    As for my needs, I think its a good way to inroduce the demon to a pure pack without being hacked appart with the first glance.
                    That's pretty fair. Just be sure to have some sort of insurance policy in case fire demon guy tries to bite off more than he can chew lol

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Korogra View Post

                      That's pretty fair. Just be sure to have some sort of insurance policy in case fire demon guy tries to bite off more than he can chew lol
                      He won't bite, he is too afraid of the godmachine to endager his cover, he only used partial transformation in order to defeat some mortals and he feels guilt for that, not the kills, that he had to use partial trans.

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