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Judgment of your Elders.

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  • Judgment of your Elders.

    Okay, so here's a situational one for you, Onyx Path forum goers!

    Say you've got a setting in which there is an Alpha Pack. A pack full of elders who basically alpha's the other packs int he city.

    Now say that an Elodoth catches the alpha pack breaking the Oath of the Moon (Not respecting the Low, and the sanction of the murder of one of the People), or the Elodoth at least susses out that they have. Say the Oath was broken by sanction of murder, but it may have been justified. The murdered Uratha did something awful to a very important human in order to make a statement. Torture. The human lived.

    What would your view of the judgment laid down by an elodoth not within the alpha pack? What process would or should there be? How should judgment commence? How would YOUR Elodoth handle such a thing?
    Last edited by HelloMyNameIs; 07-11-2017, 10:28 AM.

  • #2
    Okay, a lot of things could happen here but I appreciate the situational hypothetical.

    One of the most clear-cut resolutions is a lune coming down and making an announcement to a gathering of wolves. It's rare and mostly the Oath stuff is up to the werewolves but it does sometimes happen.

    Another thing that might happen involves a lodge. There's a lodge called the Secret Tribunal that can deal with this sort of thing, they're a sort of secret police of the Oath of the Moon and may decide the Alpha needs to be taken out, or at least punished, which would likely be some sort of scarring via silver. Of course it's entirely possible the lodge doesn't exist in your game or have people in your area.

    What would your view of the judgment laid down by an elodoth not within the alpha pack?
    It would depend on the situation of the non-alpha packs. Are they allowed to make judgments? Or is everything up to the alphas? In either case it seems like the alphas should, at least, take a hit to their reputation, providing they hold themselves up as 'better than thou' law-followers. It might encourage others to stop listening to the alphas.

    What process would or should there be?
    Obviously a lot of ways it could play out depending on how orderly the area is. I'd imagine the Elodoth makes an accusation, it runs around the gossip mill a while depending on the Elodoth's reputation or social skills. The alphas are forced, eventually, to make a statement in kind. This could be challenging the Elodoth, denying it happened and calling him a liar, or saying it was alright because of what the murdered Uratha did.

    How should judgment commence?
    If word of the alphas breaking has some effect on the other packs, then it might be a more unanimous, 'Fuck that pack,' statement. If not, it might be down to the Elodoth and the alpha they accused, which would likely be some sort of trial by combat or, if the elodoth is smart, taking it to a higher court, some sort of justice or truth spirit, ideally a lune so they can't refuse to be judged by something inherently biased against them. There's plenty of ways to prove it happened, many elodoth have an ability to detect truths, but punishment wouldn't necessarily be a 'to the death' thing, it could just be a slap on the wrist or a scarring or some sort of penance like giving a fetish or locus to the murdered uratha's pack.

    If the Elodoth could get some Blood Talons into it, they might be up to the task.

    How would YOUR Elodoth handle such a thing?
    I played an Elodoth! He was kind of a jerk. He probably wouldn't care so much about the murdered uratha but he would likely be annoyed that there's a pack who consider themselves the 'alpha' pack and especially if they acted as law enforcement while simultaneously breaking the law. The situation would probably seem to him like the alpha is getting revenge on behalf of the tortured human, so he'd probably check out that angle. Looking into other possible 'lapses' in the Oath by the same uratha and members of their pack would be a thing, too. He probably wouldn't be obvious about what he was aiming at, so he might go so far as to befriend members of the pack in question. If the guy annoyed or antagonized him enough and he thought he could get away with it he might just kill the alpha.
    Last edited by nofather; 07-11-2017, 12:42 PM.

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    • #3
      Maybe I read Auspice wrong, but does not Elodoth are all about justice AND their private goals? Typical Elodoth would call to punish Elders, but also trying to use it to rise his own goals, from what I understand.


      My stuff for Scion 2E, CoD Contagion, Dark Eras, VtR 2E, WtF 2E, MtAw 2E & BtP
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      • #4
        First of all, the Oath gets broken all the time by various people. Especially the killing of other werewolves - happens all the time against the pure High respecting the Low? That's a debatable on what respect is. What matters is how the -spirits- react to the violation, not other werewolves.

        "What would your view of the judgment laid down by an elodoth not within the alpha pack? What process would or should there be? How should judgment commence? How would YOUR Elodoth handle such a thing?"
        My responce would be to have it laughed off. Each pack is a self-contained unit. Mini-kingdoms, to use my teacher's turn of phrase*. If an outsider tried to pass judgement on my pack? Our pack's responce would be "Make us." Its a direct challenge to our territory and how its run. And that's very likely what happened in the OP example - the torturer hurt someone under the alpha pack's protection, so they responded in force at the violation. And to be fair? That werewolf torturer is guilty of breaking the Oath as well.

        There is some respect and authority from outside the pack in the form of Auspice (Lunes, basically) and Tribe. As a group, they can bring some weight against indiviudals in a pack, but that's questionable if the alpha pack is respected by spirits and the local tribe. The lunes especially? If THEY were demanding payment for the violation, that's something the alpha pack would agree to - its basically just hurting themselves to not. And that's the route I would take to pass "judgement." Getting the pack totem, or some other spirit, on my side and getting them to enforce the pennance.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by MCN View Post
          My responce would be to have it laughed off. Each pack is a self-contained unit. Mini-kingdoms, to use my teacher's turn of phrase*. If an outsider tried to pass judgement on my pack? Our pack's responce would be "Make us."
          The setting as written is pretty much that. The exception being protectorates but those are more loose alliances than structured society. Uratha packs are islands and i would even argue that tribe aside from ban and favored prey are meaningless as ways to put social pressure on someone. There is no social structure to the setting beyond "Constant might make right"

          Say the whole offenders tribe wants attack/enforce the oath they run the problem that unless they are all alphas of their respective pack or one of those democratic pack then they also have to clear it with their packs to see if going to "war" with that particular person is worth it to the pack.

          Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
          Maybe I read Auspice wrong, but does not Elodoth are all about justice AND their private goals? Typical Elodoth would call to punish Elders, but also trying to use it to rise his own goals, from what I understand.
          Not really, Elodoth renown is honor not cunning. Yes, there are Elodoths that do those things but they are also Elodoth that give a fair judgement beyond "what i can get out of it" just because its their duty to do so or are fair people. Personally i tend to play the Fair elodoth archetype, except on no killing the pure but mostly because its a poorly conceive setting element that never make sense both IC and OOC, except on the thinnest of logic.
          Last edited by LokiRavenSpeak; 07-13-2017, 09:37 PM.

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