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Vampires vs. Werewolves!

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  • Iguazu
    started a topic Vampires vs. Werewolves!

    Vampires vs. Werewolves!

    In NWoD, I have never actually had or seen werewolves fight vampires. How is it? I have seen plenty of vampire vs. werewolf fights in VtM, which usually didn't turn out well for the vampires. What's it like? And why do they fight if they did? WtF virtually has nothing on vampires or even VtR. It's out of the a werewolf's scope.

  • Malus
    replied
    Originally posted by nofather View Post
    I mean, if a human can sneak into a vampire's lair and kill them while they sleep, a werewolf can do it.
    Far more easily, in fact.

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  • nofather
    replied
    Originally posted by Seidmadr View Post
    The problem with vampires vs. werewolves is that the outcome changes based on xp levels.
    But also time of day. I'd argue this has a much bigger impact.

    I mean, if a human can sneak into a vampire's lair and kill them while they sleep, a werewolf can do it.

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  • Seidmadr
    replied
    The problem with vampires vs. werewolves is that the outcome changes based on xp levels.
    A starting werewolf will most likely defeat a starting vampire, in mid-level it's equal, and at high end the vampire wins. If the vampire somehow neutralizes Gauru (such as by going invisible and outlasting the timer, or simply staying out of reach), the vampire wins from mid-level onward.

    The problems really arise in that vampires have some nice things that scale with blood potency. Those are Frenzy benefits (increased by going Wyrm-Ordo), and vitae expenditure. These two combined will mean that a vampire can get high enough of a dice pool to take out the Uratha with relative ease. Vampires can also benefit from using large weapons, unlike the Uratha, whose damage increase ability is tied to their natural weapons. Vampires also have a few benefits that the Uratha lack. Such as a power to increase defence (two, if Wyrm-Ordo). If it's a group fight, the Uratha suffer as well, since their damage reduction power (Rage - Glory, Berserker's Might) only stops one instance of damage, whereas Resilience stops more, and works on all sources.

    For great defensive powers, the Uratha have cost on their side, but vampires have power and utility. Juggernaut's Gait is expensive, but it is complete immunity to damage, and as long as one can afford the great cost, it's use is unlimited. Gauru on the other hand has fantastic healing, but it does nothing to handle extreme amounts of damage. It is also limited in it's use. It has one burst, that lasts a few rounds. If the vampire can last that long, the fight is theirs. Kuruth on the other hand takes away the utility of the other shapes, which means that the werewolf is forced to rely on a single (though strong) path to victory.

    Gift of Elements (Purity) is a great counter for vampires, but Claws of the Unholy on the other hand are a great counter for everything.

    And honestly. I see no problem with this. Werewolves counter their weakness by being parts of packs who work well together. Vampires tend to get more and more lonely and mistrustful as they age, and won't really have anyone to rely on to watch their backs in combat. So yeah, werewolves lose one-on-one, but they rarely fight one-on-one either.

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  • nofather
    replied
    Originally posted by Poseur View Post
    Except that Lunacy kicks in after the encounter.
    Lunacy can kick in after the encounter. It can kick in immediately, as well.

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  • Poseur
    replied
    Originally posted by Elfive View Post
    Ghoul thing wouldn't work, anyway. They're not immune to lunacy, so werewolves have a few ways to make them shit themselves and scatter.

    Except that Lunacy kicks in after the encounter.

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  • maryshelly
    replied
    Originally posted by Elfive View Post
    I think the focus was more on the "not in hand-to-hand combat" bit.

    Humans can fall for traps. The underlying principle of "fight smarter" is still there. It's just more difficult because smarter than a werewolf is a lot higher bar than smarter than a bear.
    You are correct sir. The point was engaging in hand to hand combat. In addition, I figured that once werewolves enter their war forms, and especially in Basu-Ilm, most reason goes out the window so that is where the analogy of a raging grizzly bear comes from.

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  • Elfive
    replied
    Anything that doesn't have integrity is immune. And also wolfblooded because that's one of their specific bennies.

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  • Lashet
    replied
    Originally posted by Elfive View Post
    They're not immune to lunacy
    Aren't they? I though any supernatural template is immune by default.
    From the other hand, ghouls don't seem tough enough to be immune to Dawn and Dirty combat. And to bullets)))

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  • Elfive
    replied
    Ghoul thing wouldn't work, anyway. They're not immune to lunacy, so werewolves have a few ways to make them shit themselves and scatter.

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  • Lashet
    replied
    ^^^ This. In such threads some people always try to humilate werewolves (and exactly werewolves neither mages, demons, changelings, etc)

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  • nofather
    replied
    Originally posted by Elfive View Post
    I don't see where they implied werewolves are dumb.
    The general thrust of the thread has had vampires running around with silver weaponry, setting traps and having amassed legions of ghouls trained in combat and wielding silver waiting for the werewolves to just charge at them from across the street at midnight. Basically every 'a werewolf could do this,' has been countered by, 'but vampires would be prepared for that,' or 'silly werewolves can't manage that.'

    I mentioned a couple times vampires didn't really need a champion here. It's because this thread has happened before, twice. They even set parameters for the vampire and werewolf, and showed the math. There was another thread that did it as well, but I've lost it. Plus people have been trying to give werewolf the shaft since before the game came out, not wanting them to have Lethal claw and fang against people with basic resistances. Werewolf's been on the defense regarding the 'versus' question for years, and attackers come out of the woodwork. Maybe it's an Apocalypse thing?
    Last edited by nofather; 09-01-2017, 12:00 PM.

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  • Elfive
    replied
    New idea: Vampires and Werewolves vs This Fucking Trope.

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  • Malus
    replied
    Originally posted by Lashet View Post
    Yep. But outside of white room any comparison makes no sense. Cuz it's always about "what IF we'll fight them with silver and ghouls" "what if we'll fight them with fire and at day" "what if-what if-what if
    Right. Basically this:

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  • Lashet
    replied
    Originally posted by Thorbes View Post
    That's why whiterooms don't work. Unless you determine the exact capabilities of everyone involved this has no point.
    Yep. But outside of white room any comparison makes no sense. Cuz it's always about "what IF we'll fight them with silver and ghouls" "what if we'll fight them with fire and at day" "what if-what if-what if

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