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  • Differences in W:tF 1E vs 2E

    So, of course there are a TON of differences between 1E and 2E W:tF...some I like, some I really don't. Of course, the ones I don't like may simply be a misunderstanding of how they work. Still, here's my list of likes and dislikes. I'd love to hear some of yours!

    Likes:
    • Werewolves can mate with other werewolves. This makes sense to me and I wholly encourage it. I think it's really cool. Logically, however, I don't understand the "Cleave to Humans" part of the Oath. Werewolves shacking up with other werewolves makes sense. Werewolves shacking up with humans makes sense. Though I would never personally play a werewolf shacking with a wolf, I don't see what the issue is with disallowing it. Still, in regards to werewolves mating with one another, I will miss the Unihar...they were way too much fun as plot devices. Nothing says I can't still use them, though...just give them a different origin!
    • The new Gift system. Although the older system was easier to use (insofar as purchasing/learning them) the new system feels more "right."
    • Forsaken aren't the only ones who can have a Rank 4 totem! It always seemed unfair to me that the Pure could have these massively powerful totems. Granted, I know that when this happened with the Pure the pack tended to become enslaved to their totem, but still with the fact that the Pure outnumber the Forsaken, it still really wrong. That's been alleviated now. I also very much like the totem creation system in 2E. Very streamlined.
    • Gauru Regeneration and non-hishu ability to dodge (use their full defense) firearms! I love it...this makes werewolves truly the scariest thing in the WoD. AS THEY SHOULD BE!
    Dislikes:
    • The whole idea that anyone/thing can be part of your "pack." For me, this is just silly, although my wife loves the idea (she's always wanting to "adopt" NPCs and make them part of the pack). I'm about to speak in stereotypes, so bear with me. I don't like the idea of non-werewolves being a part of the pack because in my view only another werewolf can truly understand what it means to be a werewolf. Uratha has a mystical connection to their territory. This is a connection that nothing else in the WoD (with the exception of ghosts, but in a totally different way) has. If things get hard, werewolves dig in and fight. For vampires, they will certainly "fight" for their area of demesne in the way they do, but if push comes to shove they'll move on and establish a new demesne and live manipulate another day. It is the rare human that becomes so connected with the land they own that they'll stay when it appears all is lost. werewolves, on the other hand, will often fight until the entire pack is dead to defend their territory. It is in their blood and bones. And without that clarity of purpose, how can anyone else other than a werewolf be so committed? How can anyone/thing else truly be a part of the pack?
    • Werewolves blend in too easily with humanity now. I really liked how Primal Urge in 1E gave social penalties to uratha when dealing with humans. It was a fun roleplaying element and really made players think hard about raising their Primal Urge scores even though there are so many really cool benefits from doing so. In 2E, aside from essence bleed and diet there really is no reason NOT to raise your Primal Urge. For me it's just a lost opportunity for roleplaying.
    • Missing kuruth triggers. Don't get me wrong, I actually really like the new kuruth triggers, but I miss some of the old ones like taking 5 points of damage (lethal) or getting 5 successes in melee combat can trigger kuruth. I still have them in play in my Chronicle as I think they reinforce the idea that "you are a monster." It also makes the players think a bit ore when in combat.
    • Spirits seem watered down. It is entirely possible that I am simply running the mechanics wrong, but it seems to me that spirits are a bit watered down in the new system. In 1E, a Rank 3 spirit could really give an average pack a run for its money with their ability to regenerate. In 2E, unless it purchases the ability to regenerate, that same Rank 3 spirit can get whomped pretty easily by a Rank 1 pack. yes, I realize the strength of the werewolf is in its pack, but it just seems like it'll take a Rank 4 (at the minimum) spirit to get any respect from a pack.
    Well, that's what I have for now. I know there's others, but I'll post as I think of them.

    So, what are your likes and dislikes about 2E vs 1E?

  • #2
    Originally posted by FossMaNo1 View Post
    [/LIST]Dislikes:[LIST][*]The whole idea that anyone/thing can be part of your "pack." For me, this is just silly, although my wife loves the idea (she's always wanting to "adopt" NPCs and make them part of the pack). I'm about to speak in stereotypes, so bear with me. I don't like the idea of non-werewolves being a part of the pack because in my view only another werewolf can truly understand what it means to be a werewolf. Uratha has a mystical connection to their territory. This is a connection that nothing else in the WoD (with the exception of ghosts, but in a totally different way) has. If things get hard, werewolves dig in and fight. For vampires, they will certainly "fight" for their area of demesne in the way they do, but if push comes to shove they'll move on and establish a new demesne and live manipulate another day. It is the rare human that becomes so connected with the land they own that they'll stay when it appears all is lost. werewolves, on the other hand, will often fight until the entire pack is dead to defend their territory. It is in their blood and bones. And without that clarity of purpose, how can anyone else other than a werewolf be so committed? How can anyone/thing else truly be a part of the pack?
    My suggestion, run the pack like a cult (honestly, it's probably safe to say cults are styled AFTER packs). Have 2 or 3 circles, with the PCs functioning as the Inner Circle, the members who are truly commited, aware, and so on.

    [*]Werewolves blend in too easily with humanity now. I really liked how Primal Urge in 1E gave social penalties to uratha when dealing with humans. It was a fun roleplaying element and really made players think hard about raising their Primal Urge scores even though there are so many really cool benefits from doing so. In 2E, aside from essence bleed and diet there really is no reason NOT to raise your Primal Urge. For me it's just a lost opportunity for roleplaying.
    The reason why this was dropped was because it was annoying. Dicepool penalties are quite frankly boring ways to punish character... especially if the penalty is for an archetype the character isn't gunning for.

    It might seem like a free RP oppurtunity to you, but the social penalties essentially made it so that any sort of social focused character would be impractical and unable to advance because of said penalties. The whole point of removing them was to make an entire character archetype a reasonable choice. It might be a downside in your opinion, that kind of penalty essentially meant that players had to choose between being powerful and being charismatic.... Not good if you ask me because well, it gets in the way of allowing social predators.


    I suppose you might not like the Sheeps Clothing effect on Hishu though.


    [*]Missing kuruth triggers. Don't get me wrong, I actually really like the new kuruth triggers, but I miss some of the old ones like taking 5 points of damage (lethal) or getting 5 successes in melee combat can trigger kuruth. I still have them in play in my Chronicle as I think they reinforce the idea that "you are a monster." It also makes the players think a bit ore when in combat.
    While I am not sure about the Exceptional successes thing, the reason the first one was removed probably was because it became so much more common to get 5 points of damage in a single turn because of how weapon damage is calculated now. Basically, if you lack armor, any hit with a rifle is likely going to send you into into Death Rage now.

    So, what are your likes and dislikes about 2E vs 1E?
    I don't really dislike anything of the new edition, so here's what I like.

    Gifts. Awesome. I disagree that the older system was simpler. You have no idea how many hours I spent trying to cherry pick something useful because of how Renown worked meant you would essentially be picking things that were useless to you. The new system is far more intuitive.


    I do miss the lack of Savage Rending though. That was fun.



    No need to get Rite of Dedicated Clothing. Making it inherent to the template is just... better than having someone pay XP to bind clothing and it solves the issue of being in the nude after shapechanging in random wear.


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    • #3
      Originally posted by Almarck View Post

      The reason why this was dropped was because it was annoying. Dicepool penalties are quite frankly boring ways to punish character... especially if the penalty is for an archetype the character isn't gunning for.

      It might seem like a free RP opportunity to you, but the social penalties essentially made it so that any sort of social focused character would be impractical and unable to advance because of said penalties. The whole point of removing them was to make an entire character archetype a reasonable choice. It might be a downside in your opinion, that kind of penalty essentially meant that players had to choose between being powerful and being charismatic.... Not good if you ask me because well, it gets in the way of allowing social predators.
      This is a good point! See, that's why I posted here...getting a new perspective is always a good thing.

      ...Oh, and I completely agree with you on the clothing thing. So much better!

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      • #4
        Note on those Kuruth Triggers, you can still take something like them. Nothing prevents you from making your own.

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        • #5
          There is one thing I really dislike about 2e, and it's the "absolutes". Such as the Primal Fear ability of the Gauru, which is an irresistable power. Same with the Meninna-merit, it is apparently impossible to hide where one has a hideout from one of them. They take a look, and then they know. As the rules are written, no matter where or how that hideout exists.
          Another thing irks me as well, though not compared to 1e, but rather the other 2e gamelines: Werewolves can't increase their defence. Mages and Vampires do it easily, werewolves can't.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Seidmadr View Post
            Another thing irks me as well, though not compared to 1e, but rather the other 2e gamelines: Werewolves can't increase their defence. Mages and Vampires do it easily, werewolves can't.
            I think it was Acrozatarim who was saying that, in the core, they really wanted to focus on the fundamental stuff. Which is why there's no gun gifts or gun fetishes, even though those are obviously a thing. I think the Defense part may be an aspect of that, as they wanted to focus on the 'natural' aspects of being a werewolf, so gave you ways to increase your Health and Armor, rather than avoiding attacks.

            @FossMaNo1
            One of the things with packs is that there's different tiers of really being in a pack. A werewolf's totally human parents who would go mad if they found out their child was a werewolf are in that outer tier. They don't know about werewolf stuff, or even that they exist. They might not even know their child's friends and have only met one other werewolf, they might even live outside of the territory. But they're packmates by association with their child, and through them, the pack, would fight to protect or save them. You bring up a good point about vampires, but I think part of the point is that you don't just let monsters in for good unless they've earned it, and while a vampire may run and flee, another may stand and fight for their territory, and earn their place within a pack.

            -----

            I see second edition as altogether a huge improvement. I would not under any circumstances go back to playing first edition and bring some things over. I think the only place it's really suffered is in books. I don't like the mindless product pushing line of first edition, but I think werewolf gained the most from it. While I don't like some of them, the first edition books are very concise and manage to cover almost every aspect of playing the game. I think we really need a second edition version of the antagonist books, because the game places a heavy focus on antagonists and the only one we've gone into depth with in second edition are the potentially world-ending idigam, who you don't just want to throw all over a story like rampaging goblins. The Pure, the Bale Hounds, Claimed and Hosts, Spirits and weirder things. A spirit chapter detailing different potential things one can do with Influences would be invaluable.

            Even on a micro scale, the only problem I have with individual books is I want more in them.
            Last edited by nofather; 07-18-2017, 01:46 PM.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by FossMaNo1 View Post
              • The whole idea that anyone/thing can be part of your "pack." For me, this is just silly, although my wife loves the idea (she's always wanting to "adopt" NPCs and make them part of the pack). I'm about to speak in stereotypes, so bear with me. I don't like the idea of non-werewolves being a part of the pack because in my view only another werewolf can truly understand what it means to be a werewolf. Uratha has a mystical connection to their territory. This is a connection that nothing else in the WoD (with the exception of ghosts, but in a totally different way) has. If things get hard, werewolves dig in and fight. For vampires, they will certainly "fight" for their area of demesne in the way they do, but if push comes to shove they'll move on and establish a new demesne and live manipulate another day. It is the rare human that becomes so connected with the land they own that they'll stay when it appears all is lost. werewolves, on the other hand, will often fight until the entire pack is dead to defend their territory. It is in their blood and bones. And without that clarity of purpose, how can anyone else other than a werewolf be so committed? How can anyone/thing else truly be a part of the pack?
              I think that this is less of a change than you might be perceiving it as. The definition of "Pack" has simply been broadened, and what the word previously described is now called a "Hunting Party." For example, in Hunting Ground: the Rockies, the Red Knives posed as a community of extreme preppers, and recruited humans and wolf-blooded into their community. But only the werewolves were true pack members. In 2e, their prepper community would be called their pack, and the subset of the pack that only werewolves are allowed into would be called the hunting party.

              Originally posted by FossMaNo1 View Post
              • Werewolves blend in too easily with humanity now. I really liked how Primal Urge in 1E gave social penalties to uratha when dealing with humans. It was a fun roleplaying element and really made players think hard about raising their Primal Urge scores even though there are so many really cool benefits from doing so. In 2E, aside from essence bleed and diet there really is no reason NOT to raise your Primal Urge. For me it's just a lost opportunity for roleplaying.
              Personally, I like how well they blend in now. If they're supposed to be the ideal hunters, they should be good at hiding among their prey. They should be wolves in sheep's human clothing. I do understand the desire for a tradeoff for Primal Urge, but I think 2e has this, and I think it does it better than 1e - higher Primal Urge means more frequent need to participate in the Sacred Hunt, which means more time spent engaging in spirit-like activity, and less time spent engaging in human activity. High Primal-Urge werewolves should have a harder time maintaining balanced Harmony, and a harder time maintaining normal lives. To me, being unable to maintain normal relationships because the inescapable instinct to hunt and kill keeps pulling you away from the people you love provides much better roleplaying opportunities than a a couple fewer dice on social rolls.

              Originally posted by FossMaNo1 View Post
              [LIST][*]Missing kuruth triggers. Don't get me wrong, I actually really like the new kuruth triggers, but I miss some of the old ones like taking 5 points of damage (lethal) or getting 5 successes in melee combat can trigger kuruth. I still have them in play in my Chronicle as I think they reinforce the idea that "you are a monster." It also makes the players think a bit ore when in combat.[/list
              I agree with you on this one. I love the personal triggers, but I think the game could do with more universal triggers. As it stands, it's pretty easy for werewolves with reasonably balanced harmony to avoid Kuruth. There's always ST fiat, but I'd rather have more clearly defined universal triggers than just rely on "when it's dramatically appropriate."

              Originally posted by FossMaNo1 View Post
              • Spirits seem watered down. It is entirely possible that I am simply running the mechanics wrong, but it seems to me that spirits are a bit watered down in the new system. In 1E, a Rank 3 spirit could really give an average pack a run for its money with their ability to regenerate. In 2E, unless it purchases the ability to regenerate, that same Rank 3 spirit can get whomped pretty easily by a Rank 1 pack. yes, I realize the strength of the werewolf is in its pack, but it just seems like it'll take a Rank 4 (at the minimum) spirit to get any respect from a pack.
              Interesting. I've found spirits to be extremely powerful in 1e. I wonder what's going differently in our experiences with them.

              Originally posted by FossMaNo1 View Post
              Well, that's what I have for now. I know there's others, but I'll post as I think of them.

              So, what are your likes and dislikes about 2E vs 1E?
              I've pretty much found 2e to be a straight improvement over 1e. With the exception of the above-mentioned lack of universal Kuruth triggers, I don't have any complaints I can think of off the top of my head. I do miss Bale Hounds, but I'm sure they'll return eventually, and in the meantime there's always the option of home-converting. I miss the Pure tribes' unique Gifts too, but same story there.

              One general complaint I have is that I'm growing less enamoured of Conditions over time. But that's less of a complaint about Forsaken and more about the Revosed Storytelling System as a whole. And I don't even dislike Conditions as a concepr, I'm just getting a little weary of the Condition bloat as more and more books come out.
              Last edited by Charlaquin; 07-18-2017, 01:49 PM.


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              • #8
                Originally posted by nofather View Post

                I think it was Acrozatarim who was saying that, in the core, they really wanted to focus on the fundamental stuff. Which is why there's no gun gifts or gun fetishes, even though those are obviously a thing. I think the Defense part may be an aspect of that, as they wanted to focus on the 'natural' aspects of being a werewolf, so gave you ways to increase your Health and Armor, rather than avoiding attacks.
                See, there are two things here, attack/defence boosts, and damage/armor boosts.
                Werewolves have an attack boost like the others, a strength increase. Simple. But they don't have a defence boost to counter it. Vampires have their attack/defence boosts in Vigor and Celerity, and Prometheans get it in Vitality - Unbroken and Corporeum - Charites.
                Werewolves have Damage/Armor boosts just like vampires though.

                This isn't a case of being balanced between splats, it's about balancing powers against each other internally. The fact that there are more powers boosting attacks than defence (especially in combination with defence-reducing powers, like Primal Fear) means that we are back in 1e where striking first was really the only way to defend oneself.
                As it is, the attacker will always have the advantage, and the defender must rely on managing hits to survive. Vampires can help negate those hits. And not being hit in the first time is more important in 2e, what with even a one-success hit can deliver a lot of Lethal damage, when backed by damage-boosting powers and large weapons.

                Anyhow, evading attacks rather than taking them is rather natural to me.

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                • #9
                  I get it, I just meant I think they were focusing on the more physical 'werewolves getting hit and keep going' angle. I know there's no gifts that allow for Defense, but I think also with the embracing of the toolbox approach in second edition, we're supposed to to ideally be building a bunch of gifts on our own.
                  Last edited by nofather; 07-18-2017, 04:50 PM.

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                  • #10
                    Meanwhile me and my pack have been completely abusing Hit & Run to outrun things like walls of incoming bullets and grenade blasts.

                    1 essence to to avoid harm altogether is so much better than having to spend 3-5 to heal.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by FossMaNo1 View Post
                      So, what are your likes and dislikes about 2E vs 1E?
                      Overall i like 2nd but i do have some complains, some related to the book themselves and others to the mechanics.

                      Setting/mechanics things i dislike:
                      • I dislike how the packs are now to include Wolfblooded and humans. In theory/fuff side i dont have a problem with it but in actual play i found it to be a NPC bloat, having to think humans and wolf blooded to everysingle NPC pack puts to much pressure on the DM on both balance and NPC management. For example i am using the Rockies source book which freatures 11 packs + the pc pack and most of them have at least 4 members, when i try to put even more wolf blooded and humans to that i just throw the whole thing away and decided to ignore that setting bit. However something that did help was making each Player roll another wolf blooded, makes player more invented even when they dont have the spotlight on their PCs on.
                      • The setting still is too complex and at the same time too much left in the air for IC new comers. How Urathas and wolf blooded know stuff is never presented or really mentioned. The game assume they just know the setting but as there isnt any formal social structure is weird. The pack alludes that some wolf blooded just are in for the feeling of unity and purpose of the hunt/pack and thats a nice prose and all but it really assumes all wolf blooded are thrillseekers.
                      • I dislike triggers. They feel too impersonal and random and as many rule in the setting they arent really properly explained. This is another thing that i just drop in actual play and went with a apocalypses, the DM tells you when to roll to enter kuruth.
                      • Contagious rage is just "meh" as a mechanic and i just dont feel like it adds anything really beyond "kuruth is spoopy".
                      • The addition of sacred prey to the tribes was poorly done, and the question is never addressed which has more importance. If a werewolf is living the ideals of the Stormlord but thinks that other werewolf are the most dangerous prey then what? Also the lack of social structure and the way each pack is an island with protectorate serving as very very loose alliances makes tribe meaningless except for the bonus and bans. I dont mind but i really hope the game just admit it instead of pretending like Requiem pretends Clan is important.
                      Things i dislike about the books itself:
                      • Too much word count dedicate to the idigam, which was not necessary. Its a bad guy i, as dm, will need to think off normally only at the end of the campaign/chapter. They could have honestly cut down from 5 to 3 and it wouldnt make a difference and would have free more space to things like.
                      • More clarifications on the rules. There is one to many moments that the rules are unclear, gifts gaining is badly explain (for example when i get my auspice renown i get 1 lunar gift and a shadow/wolf gift? or do i unlock), triggers are missing on whether one can get trigger from different categories and make up my list. More rites, pure gifts. I eventually found the answers but i had to ask around for info that should have come in the Book.
                      • Exploring more the "day to day" preys like Host and Pure.
                      • Fetishes are poorly explained and way too weak for the price one pays.
                      • The line seems to be abandoned to rot.
                      Originally posted by nofather View Post
                      but I think also with the embracing of the toolbox approach in second edition, we're supposed to to ideally be building a bunch of gifts on our own.
                      Yeah that doesnt fly with me, i dont buy a book just for it to throws his hand in the air and tell me i do its work for it. There isnt even a system in place on how to create gift, only a squalid blog post on how the process of gift making goes for the devs.
                      Last edited by LokiRavenSpeak; 07-18-2017, 07:21 PM.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by LokiRavenSpeak View Post
                        Yeah that doesnt fly with me, i dont buy a book just for it to throws his hand in the air and tell me i do its work for it.
                        That's not what the book says, or even what I said. The book has more gifts than the first edition. But it's been made pretty clear that there's as many potential gifts as there are concepts and things in the world.

                        There isnt even a system in place on how to create gift, only a squalid blog post on how the process of gift making goes for the devs.
                        The blog posts aren't just a writer bragging about how they did it, they're trying to show you how to do it so some of the concepts and things that show up in your game can be represented.

                        Fetishes are poorly explained and way too weak for the price one pays.
                        What price?

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by nofather View Post
                          The blog posts aren't just a writer bragging about how they did it, they're trying to show you how to do it so some of the concepts and things that show up in your game can be represented.
                          Never said that they were bragging but as explanation goes on how to make my own gifts, its all boils down to "use the equivalent of a 1e level 3 gift" which is pretty squalid if they expects me create all the missing gifts myself from 1st.

                          Originally posted by nofather View Post
                          What price?
                          For example a 5 dot fetish weapons given as an example: sap wp or health (quantity not determined) and has 8s again/rote quality.

                          It is a mighty weapon but not one that warranties messing with a rank 5 spirit. Is too little for such a big cost.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by LokiRavenSpeak View Post
                            For example a 5 dot fetish weapons given as an example: sap wp or health (quantity not determined) and has 8s again/rote quality.

                            It is a mighty weapon but not one that warranties messing with a rank 5 spirit. Is too little for such a big cost.


                            Notice how there isn't a Fetish merit in the entire book.
                            It's possible you aren't supposed to charge them for experience points like you were supposed to in the older edition.

                            I suppose this means that it's all a question of if the GM would think it's fine to give you some toys, like older editions of D&D.


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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Almarck View Post
                              Notice how there isn't a Fetish merit in the entire book.
                              It's possible you aren't supposed to charge them for experience points like you were supposed to in the older edition.
                              You aren't. They're either made by PCs or picked up in games or borrowed at the Lodge Armory.

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