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Differences in W:tF 1E vs 2E

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Almarck View Post
    Notice how there isn't a Fetish merit in the entire book.
    It's possible you aren't supposed to charge them for experience points like you were supposed to in the older edition.
    I never mentioned xp cost, what are you talking about? I said that the cost of getting a five dot fetish is normally putting a rank 5 spirit in it, and that the benefit of getting a rank 5 fetish doesnt cover the work/risk.

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    • #17
      Ah, then nevermind.


      Mechs: Because even the Chronicles of Darkness needs robot fights.
      DarkFrame: Crossover setting that puts Chronicles of Darkness in the far future that is Warframe.
      Monarch: The Endless You are an alien ruler, charged with maintaining a people who you shape to suit your needs.

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      • #18
        I don't mind non-Uratha as part of a pack; if you want to fight and die for my character, cool!

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        • #19
          The way I see it, you don't go after a rank 5 spirit to make a rank 5 fetish. You make a rank 5 fetish to contain a rank 5 spirit.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Elfive View Post
            The way I see it, you don't go after a rank 5 spirit to make a rank 5 fetish. You make a rank 5 fetish to contain a rank 5 spirit.
            Whats the difference? You make a rank 5 fetish but it wont do anything until you put a Rank 5 spirit in it. Either the spirit wanna go into the fetish willingly (which is incredibly rare), or one forces him into which is a herculean task or negotiate which is gonna cost you a lot.

            And that not even getting on what effect on the Shadow politic/landscape of the equivalent of a City father (i dont remember right now if those are rank 4 or 5) is remove from the shadow.

            All of that for a underwelming fetish. Useful, yes but not worth the trouble.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by LokiRavenSpeak View Post

              Whats the difference?
              The difference is the motivation. I'm saying that, generally, you won't create a five dot fetish because you want a five dot fetish. You create a five dot fetish because there's a troublesome demigod you wish to contain. Of course it's a herculean task getting them in there. That's why they're legendary.

              I mean, if you really want to just boost what they're capable of. It's the top of the scale so you're not treading on anything's toes.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by LokiRavenSpeak View Post

                Overall i like 2nd but i do have some complains, some related to the book themselves and others to the mechanics.

                Setting/mechanics things i dislike:
                Originally posted by LokiRavenSpeak View Post
                • I dislike how the packs are now to include Wolfblooded and humans. In theory/fuff side i dont have a problem with it but in actual play i found it to be a NPC bloat, having to think humans and wolf blooded to everysingle NPC pack puts to much pressure on the DM on both balance and NPC management. For example i am using the Rockies source book which freatures 11 packs + the pc pack and most of them have at least 4 members, when i try to put even more wolf blooded and humans to that i just throw the whole thing away and decided to ignore that setting bit. However something that did help was making each Player roll another wolf blooded, makes player more invented even when they dont have the spotlight on their PCs on.
                Nothing prevents you from playing packs that are exclusively the inner circle. Charlaquin already mentioned the Red Knives and let's not forget Mountain's Proud Children, who are like 25-30 Uratha.

                Originally posted by LokiRavenSpeak View Post
                • The setting still is too complex and at the same time too much left in the air for IC new comers. How Urathas and wolf blooded know stuff is never presented or really mentioned. The game assume they just know the setting but as there isnt any formal social structure is weird. The pack alludes that some wolf blooded just are in for the feeling of unity and purpose of the hunt/pack and thats a nice prose and all but it really assumes all wolf blooded are thrillseekers.
                The specific circumstances of NPCs are the sole dominion of individual STs, because no book whatsoever could afford to feasibly account for their variance beyond generalities which the book does provides plentily enough.

                Originally posted by LokiRavenSpeak View Post
                • I dislike triggers. They feel too impersonal and random and as many rule in the setting they arent really properly explained. This is another thing that i just drop in actual play and went with a apocalypses, the DM tells you when to roll to enter kuruth.
                I'd recommend you took triggers that actually resonate with your characters rather than 'rolling in the trigger random table'. If there isn't an apparent one, make your own reasons.

                Originally posted by LokiRavenSpeak View Post
                • Contagious rage is just "meh" as a mechanic and i just dont feel like it adds anything really beyond "kuruth is spoopy".
                In which term? Bear in mind that the notion that Kuruth is contagious to non-packmates was dropped. So two packs which kuruth separately might as well try and tear one another apart.

                Originally posted by LokiRavenSpeak View Post
                • The addition of sacred prey to the tribes was poorly done, and the question is never addressed which has more importance. If a werewolf is living the ideals of the Stormlord but thinks that other werewolf are the most dangerous prey then what? Also the lack of social structure and the way each pack is an island with protectorate serving as very very loose alliances makes tribe meaningless except for the bonus and bans. I dont mind but i really hope the game just admit it instead of pretending like Requiem pretends Clan is important.
                A forsaken without a tribe is like a child without parents, IE, a loner with unresolved issues that will face greater challenges than he would have otherwise done.

                Originally posted by LokiRavenSpeak View Post
                • Too much word count dedicate to the idigam, which was not necessary. Its a bad guy i, as dm, will need to think off normally only at the end of the campaign/chapter. They could have honestly cut down from 5 to 3 and it wouldnt make a difference and would have free more space to things like.
                Then they should have scrapped the Idigam Chronicles altogether. Good to know.

                Originally posted by LokiRavenSpeak View Post
                • Exploring more the "day to day" preys like Host and Pure.
                Eh

                Originally posted by LokiRavenSpeak View Post
                • Fetishes are poorly explained and way too weak for the price one pays.
                You should see the stuff I've done with mere Talens.

                Originally posted by LokiRavenSpeak View Post
                • The line seems to be abandoned to rot.
                Right, the second line that got a supplement even before Vampire did.
                Last edited by Malus; 07-19-2017, 10:20 PM.

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                • #23
                  Regarding fetishes, in addition, the only mechanical difference between using the Fetish rite on a 1 Rank spirit and a 5 Rank spirit is how much Essence it costs. 1 and 5, respectively. The harder part is getting them to sit still, but that's what banes and bans and Sacred Hunts are for.

                  I don't think you're giving much credit to an object that gives 8-Again and Rote Quality, there's a Moon Gift that only gives half that under special circumstances, but you're entitled to your opinion. I do think more examples need to be given for these things, like Influences at certain Dots, Gifts to make, even Fetishes and so forth, but in the end they're heavily dependent on storytelling and specific circumstances.
                  Last edited by nofather; 07-19-2017, 11:01 AM.

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                  • #24
                    Boy what I'd give for a 2e Book of spirits with extensive treatment of Influence use with creative displays of those. Hell, I'd pay to write some of it.

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                    • #25

                      Originally posted by Elfive View Post
                      I mean, if you really want to just boost what they're capable of. It's the top of the scale so you're not treading on anything's toes.
                      Sure, its what i ended up doing but its still something i dont like from WTF.

                      Originally posted by Malus View Post
                      The specific circumstances of NPCs are the sole dominion of individual STs, because no book whatsoever could afford to feasibly account for their variance beyond generalities which the book does provides plentily enough.
                      Except Requiem did it and Apocalypse too. How does a new vampire learn the ropes? Either his Sire teach him or his covenant (which is also a temptation to join one).

                      How a cub learn the ropes in Apocalypse? With the central social structure that is the Sept, in it there is a position of Den Father/Mother whose job is to teach new cubs and following education will continue with the local elders of the cubs tribe or falling that auspice. As for conflict between packs/interest the social structure is clearly defined. Sept > pack.

                      In forsaken this is more fuzzy as each pack is presented as an island and there is not reason beyond altruism to teach the guys who could potentially steal your territory.


                      Originally posted by Malus View Post
                      I'd recommend you took triggers that actually resonate with your characters rather than 'rolling in the trigger random table'. If there isn't an apparent one, make your own reasons.
                      Eh, i doesnt add anything than "DM tells you when to roll for kuruth" doesnt already do. Besides trigger require context which the mechanic itself solery lacks. But YMMV.

                      Originally posted by Malus View Post
                      In which term? Bear in mind that the notion that Kuruth is contagious to non-packmates was dropped. So two packs which kuruth separately might as well try and tear one another apart.
                      In the sense that i get what they were going for. Making the PCs choose between helping their packmate in kuruth to avoid colateral damage but risk themselves falling into kuruth. Or let him be and clean afterwards. However in practice i found it to be tiresome, not giving players a sense of danger/tension but frustration on all of them loosing their PCs control.


                      Originally posted by Malus View Post
                      A forsaken without a tribe is like a child without parents, IE, a loner with unresolved issues that will face greater challenges than he would have otherwise done.
                      Nice fluffy bit but that doesnt say anything. First you didnt adress my main point. On what happens if a Uratha believes in the philosophy of the tribe but not on which prey is more dangerous or viceversa? They basically grabbed the 1st write ups and slap a prey in there without really integrating to the phylosophy of the tribe. Secondly, greater challenges? Barely on the mechanical sense and setting wise is not really clear how useful having a tribe is. If member of packs in opposition with the same tribe wouldnt help each other because the game as presented sets ups a "pack above all else". There is no social structure to Uratha society so its a might makes right between packs


                      Originally posted by Malus View Post
                      Then they should have scrapped the Idigam Chronicles altogether. Good to know.
                      Arent you a little overblown today? I didnt say remove the whole Idigam but trim it down. The idigam are presented as the big bad of the end of the chapter/campaign so as a DM i would have to think about it only when the game starts and at the end when they encounter it. However is all the rest of the sessions i, as a DM, would need mechanics for Host, Pure, Ridden, Spirits and Humans which are the most common antagonist that are gonna appear on the campaign.

                      Originally posted by Malus View Post
                      Right, the second line that got a supplement even before Vampire did.
                      And then nothing. One would say rushed supplement and radio silence since then. Vampire already got 2 supplements and 3rd one in the works. Mage got 2 supplements on the works. Werewolf? Nothing. Just OPP releasing more gamelines and the ones they already got feeling kind abandoned when there is plenty of material that needs 2e update.

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                      • #26
                        1) Why do you take care of a nuzusul in your turf or close to it? because you swore that the Herd wouldn't know. An Harmony 9 clueless recently changed Uratha is a rampage waiting to happen and with nothing to prevent what authorities would classify as a Christian Panic massacre on a weekly basis. *Edit: A Ghost Wolf who actually chooses to remain so is mainly seen like a moody unstable teenager who knows he's in deep shit and just doesn't gives a fuck about his own safety or the safety of others. Hence why they're not trusted.

                        2) My character is succeptible to hunger triggering his Kuruth because his bloodline was notably cannibalistic. Something he's endeavoring dearly to overcome. For example.

                        3) Dilemma between tribe and prey? I'd pick a tribe out of their values. The day there isn't any more Claimed to hunt I still ought to live without displaying weakness. Also Hunters in Darkness can totally fuck Pure over, it's just not their sworn duty.

                        4) Idigams are setting elements, their antagonism works in the sense of their agents. Few if any Idigam would begin the chapter/story/Chronicle materialized in it's size 69 form for the same reason you don't put a Dragon in the second room of the Dungeon despite the game being called Dungeon & Dragons.
                        Last edited by Malus; 07-19-2017, 10:23 PM.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Malus View Post
                          4) Idigams are setting elements, their antagonism works in the sense of their agents. Few if any Idigam would begin the chapter/story/Chronicle materialized in it's size 69 form for the same reason you don't put a Dragon in the second room of the Dungeon despite the game being called Dungeon & Dragons.
                          Thats what i have been saying, idigam are only gonna appear at the end. Too much wordcount wasted on them when the antagonist that are gonna appear more lack material

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by LokiRavenSpeak View Post

                            Thats what i have been saying, idigam are only gonna appear at the end. Too much wordcount wasted on them when the antagonist that are gonna appear more lack material
                            ...What? There are already rules on Werewolves, Spirits, Claimed, and humans. Idigam are what needs fleshing out if they are to be used.

                            There could have been a bit more Core information on the Hosts, but you can't have everything.


                            Malkydel: "And the Machine dictated; let there be adequate illumination."
                            Yossarian: "And lo, it was optimal."

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Vent0 View Post

                              There could have been a bit more Core information on the Hosts, but you can't have everything.
                              Then thats why i list it as thing i dislike about the forsaken book. Too much uneeded info on idigam, too little info on host and pure

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by LokiRavenSpeak View Post

                                Then thats why i list it as thing i dislike about the forsaken book. Too much uneeded info on idigam, too little info on host and pure

                                CoD/2E prioritizes writing new content over updating ones from cWoD/1E. In case of Werewolf, Hosts and the Pure have already been covered in 1E, so unless something significantly changes about them, we probably won't get a full update.


                                MtAw Homebrew: Even more Legacies, updated to 2E

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