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Differences in W:tF 1E vs 2E

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  • FossMaNo1
    started a topic Differences in W:tF 1E vs 2E

    Differences in W:tF 1E vs 2E

    So, of course there are a TON of differences between 1E and 2E W:tF...some I like, some I really don't. Of course, the ones I don't like may simply be a misunderstanding of how they work. Still, here's my list of likes and dislikes. I'd love to hear some of yours!

    Likes:
    • Werewolves can mate with other werewolves. This makes sense to me and I wholly encourage it. I think it's really cool. Logically, however, I don't understand the "Cleave to Humans" part of the Oath. Werewolves shacking up with other werewolves makes sense. Werewolves shacking up with humans makes sense. Though I would never personally play a werewolf shacking with a wolf, I don't see what the issue is with disallowing it. Still, in regards to werewolves mating with one another, I will miss the Unihar...they were way too much fun as plot devices. Nothing says I can't still use them, though...just give them a different origin!
    • The new Gift system. Although the older system was easier to use (insofar as purchasing/learning them) the new system feels more "right."
    • Forsaken aren't the only ones who can have a Rank 4 totem! It always seemed unfair to me that the Pure could have these massively powerful totems. Granted, I know that when this happened with the Pure the pack tended to become enslaved to their totem, but still with the fact that the Pure outnumber the Forsaken, it still really wrong. That's been alleviated now. I also very much like the totem creation system in 2E. Very streamlined.
    • Gauru Regeneration and non-hishu ability to dodge (use their full defense) firearms! I love it...this makes werewolves truly the scariest thing in the WoD. AS THEY SHOULD BE!
    Dislikes:
    • The whole idea that anyone/thing can be part of your "pack." For me, this is just silly, although my wife loves the idea (she's always wanting to "adopt" NPCs and make them part of the pack). I'm about to speak in stereotypes, so bear with me. I don't like the idea of non-werewolves being a part of the pack because in my view only another werewolf can truly understand what it means to be a werewolf. Uratha has a mystical connection to their territory. This is a connection that nothing else in the WoD (with the exception of ghosts, but in a totally different way) has. If things get hard, werewolves dig in and fight. For vampires, they will certainly "fight" for their area of demesne in the way they do, but if push comes to shove they'll move on and establish a new demesne and live manipulate another day. It is the rare human that becomes so connected with the land they own that they'll stay when it appears all is lost. werewolves, on the other hand, will often fight until the entire pack is dead to defend their territory. It is in their blood and bones. And without that clarity of purpose, how can anyone else other than a werewolf be so committed? How can anyone/thing else truly be a part of the pack?
    • Werewolves blend in too easily with humanity now. I really liked how Primal Urge in 1E gave social penalties to uratha when dealing with humans. It was a fun roleplaying element and really made players think hard about raising their Primal Urge scores even though there are so many really cool benefits from doing so. In 2E, aside from essence bleed and diet there really is no reason NOT to raise your Primal Urge. For me it's just a lost opportunity for roleplaying.
    • Missing kuruth triggers. Don't get me wrong, I actually really like the new kuruth triggers, but I miss some of the old ones like taking 5 points of damage (lethal) or getting 5 successes in melee combat can trigger kuruth. I still have them in play in my Chronicle as I think they reinforce the idea that "you are a monster." It also makes the players think a bit ore when in combat.
    • Spirits seem watered down. It is entirely possible that I am simply running the mechanics wrong, but it seems to me that spirits are a bit watered down in the new system. In 1E, a Rank 3 spirit could really give an average pack a run for its money with their ability to regenerate. In 2E, unless it purchases the ability to regenerate, that same Rank 3 spirit can get whomped pretty easily by a Rank 1 pack. yes, I realize the strength of the werewolf is in its pack, but it just seems like it'll take a Rank 4 (at the minimum) spirit to get any respect from a pack.
    Well, that's what I have for now. I know there's others, but I'll post as I think of them.

    So, what are your likes and dislikes about 2E vs 1E?

  • Darksider
    replied
    Originally posted by nofather View Post
    This is usually where you usually be dismissive of my views and imply that I don't understand things the way you do, if history is anything to go by.
    This wasn't necessary. It reads as a dare/provocation, please avoid statements like this in the future, thanks.

    Leave a comment:


  • Heroofthemists
    replied
    Originally posted by Malus View Post
    Having both 8 again and rote action amounts to basically doubling your base dice pool. IE, if you roll 12 dice with 8 again and rote action, you're potentially rolling 24 dice, or an average of 8 successes. Indeed, that's boring. Stuff an abyssal-corrupted spirit into a fetish and walk around unraveling/corrupting magic left and right. There you go, now you have an antagonist/mystery for your mage game.
    At minimum you are doubling your dice pool most likely going above that with extra successes being rerolled. It may be boring but it is undeniably powerful and fits a 5 dot fetish well in my opinion. Regardless my point was even if you don't like that, they do so much more then 8 again and rote qualities. They are extremely powerful even based off of what is given to us in the books.

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  • Elfive
    replied
    Ok, it's a bit dull, but you can't deny the effect is powerful. That's what makes it 5 dot tier.

    Leave a comment:


  • Malus
    replied
    Originally posted by Lashet View Post
    Btw, Malus, did you played crossever in 1st and 2nd edition? If yes, which one do you prefer?
    P.S. it is not about other splats as antagonists.
    Both. 2e got easier ways to one-shot people or several people. And the games tended to turn in pvp because different factions provoked each other by messing with the other's resources.

    Originally posted by Heroofthemists View Post

    I mean. We can disagree about how receiving both 8 again and rote quality on an action isn't worth it, but you ignored the other example which states that a 5 dot fetish can perform actions that explicitly break the rules, i.e. using defense against mental attacks. The endless possibilities i find with 3 dot fetishes modifying facets just pales in comparison to what I can do with a 5 dot fetish. They are most certainly worth it.
    Having both 8 again and rote action amounts to basically doubling your base dice pool. IE, if you roll 12 dice with 8 again and rote action, you're potentially rolling 24 dice, or an average of 8 successes. Indeed, that's boring. Stuff an abyssal-corrupted spirit into a fetish and walk around unraveling/corrupting magic left and right. There you go, now you have an antagonist/mystery for your mage game.
    Last edited by Malus; 07-24-2017, 11:26 AM.

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  • Heroofthemists
    replied
    Originally posted by LokiRavenSpeak View Post

    For example a 5 dot fetish weapons given as an example: sap wp or health (quantity not determined) and has 8s again/rote quality.

    It is a mighty weapon but not one that warranties messing with a rank 5 spirit. Is too little for such a big cost.
    I mean. We can disagree about how receiving both 8 again and rote quality on an action isn't worth it, but you ignored the other example which states that a 5 dot fetish can perform actions that explicitly break the rules, i.e. using defense against mental attacks. The endless possibilities i find with 3 dot fetishes modifying facets just pales in comparison to what I can do with a 5 dot fetish. They are most certainly worth it.

    Leave a comment:


  • Lashet
    replied
    Originally posted by Malus View Post

    So all those Forsaken took punches whilst in Hishu. Try to inflict that condition on a Gauru.

    I mean, if I had my older brother burned to a crisp I wouldn't surrender, I'd Kuruth the shit out of there.
    Btw, Malus, did you played crossever in 1st and 2nd edition? If yes, which one do you prefer?
    P.S. it is not about other splats as antagonists.

    Leave a comment:


  • Malus
    replied
    Originally posted by Satchel View Post
    The only such reference I can find in Conquering Heroes is talking about an Insatiable intimidating an unspecified number of Forsaken into serving him, the Insatiable in question also has the Atavism that allows him to make a contested roll to immediately inflict Beaten Down after a successful attack, and one of the primary advantages of Atavisms is that they don't need Satiety to do their basic functions normally.
    So all those Forsaken took punches whilst in Hishu. Try to inflict that condition on a Gauru.

    I mean, if I had my older brother burned to a crisp I wouldn't surrender, I'd Kuruth the shit out of there.
    Last edited by Malus; 07-24-2017, 07:21 AM.

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  • Malus
    replied
    Originally posted by Vent0 View Post

    That could have turned out badly if the Demon had Self-Destruct on the Bolthole. And 4-Minutes Ago.
    Not disputing this. I said we hunted the thing, not that it wasn't risky. Wouldn't be fun otherwise.

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  • nofather
    replied
    Originally posted by milo v3 View Post
    Admittedly, the Authority can deal aggravated damage with just his fists.
    Yes, with a cost of 1 Aggravated damage to himself.

    But werewolves can do it with just their teeth without a similar cost.

    I like the book, I've already said so in the thread when it came out. I just believe this part of it is unbelievable in the context of Chronicles of Darkness as it's been depicted in other books. Offhand, I'd say it was inspired by the Daredevil series on Netflix, specifically the Kingpin.
    Last edited by nofather; 07-23-2017, 02:14 AM.

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  • milo v3
    replied
    Admittedly, the Authority can deal aggravated damage with just his fists.

    Leave a comment:


  • nofather
    replied
    Originally posted by Satchel View Post
    This is the opposite of an obstacle to its deployment for a being that's near-explicitly using an ability that costs Satiety in a context where Satiety expenditure is to be expected — just because The Authority statted as a major power player in [insert city here] has Satiety 6 doesn't mean the character has been locked at that level in perpetuity.
    I was just clarifying, it's not the standard ability of the Atavism, and not always available. But none of that matters because the power wasn't what caused the servitude in the first place.

    In the context of normal combat, yes. When figuring out how different supernatural powers interact with different supernatural beings, respecting the fiction comes first, especially in the context of a fictional background event where the werewolves in question just had their leader reduced to ash.
    Why bring up Looming Presence to begin with, then. It's at least implied by the fiction that it wasn't used. Some werewolves were 'beaten senseless,' the others were told to serve, and they and at least some future werewolves were so afraid that they serve him too. Even with a Satiety Expenditure the Beaten Down isn't an area affect ability.

    All of which is secondary to the fact that the Insatiables are not Beasts in the first place.
    There you go, right. He's not a Beast, he's an Insatiable

    I stated it wasn't believable. You're not making this any more believable. It tilts more comic than Chronicles. This is usually where you usually be dismissive of my views and imply that I don't understand things the way you do, if history is anything to go by.

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  • Satchel
    replied
    Originally posted by nofather View Post
    The Atavism you're referring to only has that ability during Low Satiety.
    This is the opposite of an obstacle to its deployment for a being that's near-explicitly using an ability that costs Satiety in a context where Satiety expenditure is to be expected — just because The Authority statted as a major power player in [insert city here] has Satiety 6 doesn't mean the character has been locked at that level in perpetuity.

    And of course, 'Most Uratha — along with other creatures that don’t have a problem killing people — can ignore surrender without penalty and don’t get Beaten Down.'
    In the context of normal combat, yes. When figuring out how different supernatural powers interact with different supernatural beings, respecting the fiction comes first, especially in the context of a fictional background event where the werewolves in question just had their leader reduced to ash.

    All of which is secondary to the fact that the Insatiables are not Beasts in the first place.

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  • nofather
    replied
    Originally posted by Satchel View Post
    The only such reference I can find in Conquering Heroes is talking about an Insatiable intimidating an unspecified number of Forsaken into serving him
    That would be the one.

    the Insatiable in question also has the Atavism that allows him to make a contested roll to immediately inflict Beaten Down after a successful attack, and one of the primary advantages of Atavisms is that they don't need Satiety to do their basic functions normally.
    The Atavism you're referring to only has that ability during Low Satiety.

    And of course, 'Most Uratha — along with other creatures that don’t have a problem killing people — can ignore surrender without penalty and don’t get Beaten Down.'

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  • Satchel
    replied
    Originally posted by nofather View Post
    I've found Beasts to be not that imposing on their own. They have nice abilities but they can't really refuel well in combat. The one in the Night Horrors book cowing an entire community of werewolves wasn't believable at all but I get the feeling some writers don't know much about Forsaken, by things like that and repeated use of Apocalypse terms and systems.
    The only such reference I can find in Conquering Heroes is talking about an Insatiable intimidating an unspecified number of Forsaken into serving him, the Insatiable in question also has the Atavism that allows him to make a contested roll to immediately inflict Beaten Down after a successful attack, and one of the primary advantages of Atavisms is that they don't need Satiety to do their basic functions normally.
    Last edited by Satchel; 07-22-2017, 11:34 PM.

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