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Britain, Forsaken by Rome

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  • #31
    Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
    Preparing 799 A.D. story of Werewolves in Iona Isle. I want them to be Bale Hounds, in the end, but they would rose in offshoot of native Tribe tradition, from before Christanity on those terrains. So question is simple - What werewolf Tribe(s) would be natural for people of Hebrides? They were Gaels and Picts people.

    Forsaken by Rome says that Celts have Storm Lords and Hunters in Darkness presence in their midst. On the other hand, I can easily see Picts having Blood Talons - as described as 'merciless' in historical source - and probably Bone Shadows.

    Well, this thread touches on a few other tribes that could be more significantly represented among the Picts. I'm still inclined to make the North heavily Pure influenced--Predator Kings and Fire-Touched mostly, though the royal Pictish lines could have some Ivory Claws in there. I'll probably use then in a protectorate that by your time at the end of the 8th century would be thoroughly frayed. The native Picts were subsumed by intermarriage with the Scotti (Irish Gaels), Germanics and other northmen, and well on their way to evaporating as a distinct people.

    The Hebrides would be a good place for a more "pure" (haha) Picti culture to cling on, protected by the remoteness, poorness of the soil, and more than occasional sudden, nasty storm whenever someone takes an interest in invading. In fact, as for Forsaken tribes it would be a good place for the dregs and debris of Britain to wash up, literally or figuratively depending on if you want a potent sea spirit as an ally of the tribes there. Life is tough and depends more on the sea and community, so consider a mini-protectorate of outcast mixed Pure and Forsaken, stubbornly clinging to their loci even as churches move in and the sails of the vikings show on the horizon....

    --Khanwulf

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    • #32
      Khanwulf, good ideas on Pure in Hebrides, but for this particular storyline to be based on massacred Forsaken pack leftovers - to have possibile of Picts Uratha joining my Viking players. So hints of typical Tribes of Moon would be thanked for.


      My stuff for Scion 2E, Dark Eras, VtR 2E, WtF 2E, MtAw 2E & BtP
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      • #33
        Originally posted by Khanwulf View Post
        The Hebrides would be a good place for a more "pure" (haha) Picti culture to cling on, protected by the remoteness, poorness of the soil,
        I don't think that works. Dalriada was a Gaelic kingdom and included a bit of Ireland. There even seems to be some debate over whether it was ever Pitcish, or if the culture had always been closer to Ireland than to the rest of Scotland.

        Also, it's neither terribly remote or particularly bad farm land. That's why the vikings turn up, sailing is the fastest way to travel and there's stuff to steal.


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        • #34
          Originally posted by Michael View Post

          I don't think that works. Dalriada was a Gaelic kingdom and included a bit of Ireland. There even seems to be some debate over whether it was ever Pitcish, or if the culture had always been closer to Ireland than to the rest of Scotland.

          Also, it's neither terribly remote or particularly bad farm land. That's why the vikings turn up, sailing is the fastest way to travel and there's stuff to steal.

          Dal Riata was Gaelic, and part of the colonization of Scotland by the Scotti people, who were in fact Irish. In the sixth century the Inner and Outer Hebrides were still Pictish and paid little attention to the crown of Dal Riata, but by the 800s they were surely fully mixed. Even so, we're literally talking about Hyperborea here, the edge of Europe and a place (speaking broadly of Scotland) to which peoples get pushed.

          I'm not educated enough to argue their farming potential in detail, but throughout this time period it was colder than now and the economy was heavily sea-oriented. That implies the soil wasn't as productive as they'd have liked. Certainly the population was never high.

          wyrdhamster I was implying that the islands would or could have any tribe of the moon you might like--including Iron Masters, who may have come with the monastery-building efforts of previous centuries (they tried to site them on places of existing worship, such as Iona, which implies a locus at least). When the vikings come in the 800s they'll find islands sparsely inhabited and scattered with nuggets of rich religious sites. Yum! They apparently stay, but the archaeological evidence is thin.

          One wonders if the population left in light of the raids. And even if they departed from the stone circle of Callanish where the Moon would appear only a little distance above the earth every 19 years.... Certainly something needs to be explained about how the islands can be inhabited for 9000 years and then taken over by vikings with nary any evidence of slaughter, or of the genetic intermingling of peoples. (Shetlands, for example, are populated today almost entirely by descendants of both men and women from Scandinavia....)

          --Khanwulf

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          • #35
            Also: if you're setting it on Iona, please tell me that you're taking inspiration from one of top 3 favourite poems of all time: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lmkgqhw609A


            Freelance OPP. Dark Eras, Shattered Dreams, and counting!

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Khanwulf View Post
              Dal Riata was Gaelic, and part of the colonization of Scotland by the Scotti people, who were in fact Irish. In the sixth century the Inner and Outer Hebrides were still Pictish and paid little attention to the crown of Dal Riata,
              Most of the Outer Hebrides was never part of Dalriada. More to the point, Iona was supposedly given to Columba by the king of Dalriada.

              Even so, we're literally talking about Hyperborea here, the edge of Europe and a place (speaking broadly of Scotland) to which peoples get pushed.
              That only works if you accept the Roman and Greek self-image as being the centre of the world. The people themselves clearly didn't think of themselves that way.

              I'm not educated enough to argue their farming potential in detail, but throughout this time period it was colder than now and the economy was heavily sea-oriented. That implies the soil wasn't as productive as they'd have liked.
              They're islands surrounded by excellent water for fishing, it makes sense to do multiple things. Also, what are you comparing it to? If you go further inland the landscape is mountains.


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              • #37
                Originally posted by Michael View Post

                That only works if you accept the Roman and Greek self-image as being the centre of the world. The people themselves clearly didn't think of themselves that way.
                If you look at the historical European migration patterns throughout history they are generally west into Europe from Central Asia, pushing former peoples further west, upward in elevation (to poorer farming/hunting grounds) or north toward the same. That's what I was referring to, not cultural centers. (Exceptions to this are up through Iberia or the Balkans, but those tend to be fewer in number and seaborne.)

                Obviously if your ancestors have lived in, say, the Hebrides, since time immemorial then you'll have a very community-centric view of the world unless or until plenty of outside, exciting news arrives. Or, vikings....

                --Khanwulf

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                • #38
                  Ok, but the migration pattern is reversed here. It's North-east from Ireland.

                  This is the centre of my point here. It doesn't make sense to have the Ivory Claws based on a last vestage of Pictish culture because the Hebrides are where that Gaelic culture is coming from.

                  Obviously if your ancestors have lived in, say, the Hebrides, since time immemorial then you'll have a very community-centric view of the world unless or until plenty of outside, exciting news arrives. Or, vikings....
                  The Vikings are much later. Wyrd was asking what tribes would have been in the area before Columba.


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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Michael View Post
                    The Vikings are much later. Wyrd was asking what tribes would have been in the area before Columba.
                    Well, I run story in times of first Vikings raids, so I'm interested in 'native' local human ethnics and Uratha Tribes in Hebrides. Especially as I run Iona monastery as 'forign element', with monks coming from South and West of Iona ( probably from wave of Christanization in Scotland. )

                    I want to run local Uratha as 'old tradition' contrasted to 'new thing' of monastery.


                    My stuff for Scion 2E, Dark Eras, VtR 2E, WtF 2E, MtAw 2E & BtP
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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
                      Well, I run story in times of first Vikings raids, so I'm interested in 'native' local human ethnics and Uratha Tribes in Hebrides. Especially as I run Iona monastery as 'forign element', with monks coming from South and West of Iona ( probably from wave of Christanization in Scotland. )

                      I want to run local Uratha as 'old tradition' contrasted to 'new thing' of monastery.
                      By 799, Iona has been there for two centuries, it's not new. It's a major centre of christianity.


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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Michael View Post
                        By 799, Iona has been there for two centuries, it's not new. It's a major centre of christianity.
                        For the werewolves living literally in forests - it may be. But yes, whole Bale Hounds idea is that Christian raised humans become Shadow Realm sensitive werewolves - and go for the easiest explanation of their new lives. And then running to forests to nature new wild living pack.


                        My stuff for Scion 2E, Dark Eras, VtR 2E, WtF 2E, MtAw 2E & BtP
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                        • #42
                          St. Columba founded the Iona monastery in 563 AD, so it's been there a while by the time of Wyrd's 799 setting. Also, by that point the vikings are a known problem: the attack on Lindisfarne in 793 AD signaled the beginning of the Viking Age, and the attack on Iona came shortly after in 794 AD, with a second, even more brutal raid in 806 that killed 86 monks (at the Bay of the Martyrs... a wound perhaps). Iona was a rich target, for sure.

                          As for demographics, what I've found is that the Gaels made up maybe 10% of the top-level of the population by ethnicity when they merged with the remnants of Pictish tribes--so there's plenty of links to earlier groups to go around if desired. Wyrd indicates his focus is on Forsaken, so I won't belabor the point about Pure, however if there were packs around the isles I'd expect most of them to be Predator Kings or Fire-Touched, as the Ivory Claws would have more influence on the mainland. That said, Iona was a repository for royal burials, so they could have had an interest. Maybe.

                          I'll retract my comments on poor land: the Hebrides enjoy unusual fertility across at least some of them due to wind-borne distribution of nutrients. My earlier research over-emphasized the fishing connection and that was misleading, sorry.

                          The migration pattern across Europe pushed the Celts into the fringe and the Picts further north; the invasions and migration of further Gaelic Celts from Ireland up to Scotland (in the 5th and 6th centuries) is part of my point. Further, that migration went first to the mainland and then only later northwards, representing only a replacement of the noble control. The islands and far north of Scotland are one of the last places in Europe to go, short of northern Norway, Upper Lappland and other very cold regions.

                          --Khanwulf

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                          • #43
                            As we are about Late Aniquity / Early Middle Ages in Britain - I think it's okay to share fan created Lodge based on WtA Black Spiral Dancers - it's all started in times of Romans conquare of Isles so I think they can be used to mark more historicity in games. Even if they are totally fan created.

                            Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
                            Black Spiral Dancers
                            ??? <Need help on nicknames>

                            They are truly mad – mad even on Bale Hound standards! When rest of Servants of Maeljin are worshiping only one dark patron, Dancers believe every one of Dark Nine needs devotion of equal measure. Each act of wickedness, each new soul corrupted - they all gone into so called Black Spiral, beneath the Dark Nine rest of Hounds worship. This force is constantly behind their eyes, behind their mind. They constantly feel it and it’s stroke are rumbling in their ears. Join to their mad Dance!

                            They are like priests in Maeljin cults. Anybody can look for Wounds, contact other cultists, summon dark spirits. No, Black Spiral Dancers are above this - they look for the ‘whole’ and subsume it in Black Spiral. They found virtuous – and bring them to the fold of Maeljin. They sense weakness – and explore them till people are broken and keeling before Lords of Wounds. And it all started with tragedy.

                            In 1st century, group of British Picts werewolves, Lodge of White Howl, was dedicated to hunting for ghosts of long lost dead in Underworld, founded trail of Maeljin influences in Great Below. In depths of Underworld and Shadow Realm, they found mysterious portals to realm of Black Spiral Labyrinth. Adored by possibility of regaining human Vices in their new lives, they were corrupted and lead in to dimension lying under Wounds, lead before the chaotic ‘Black Spiral’. Only handful of White Howlers survive madness of Labyrinth – and when they returned, they slaughtered rest of the cult. Lodge members started their own version of Siskur-Dah, called ‘Black Spiral Dance’, changing name for whole unholy group.

                            Totem: Mad Nightjar
                            Nightjar was original Totem of White Howlers – he was bird that sang to the dead they looked for, starting their famous Howl. When Lodges become corrupted, Totem was brought pass the edges of madness, in practices similar to Flayed Lunes, created by other Bale Hounds. Now Mad Nightjar is terrifying spirits of song bringing people to madness, incanting dark howls of ‘Black Spiral’, that is rambling in all adherents heads and hearts.
                            Influances: Vices ( as Maeljins ) 4, Dead 3


                            My stuff for Scion 2E, Dark Eras, VtR 2E, WtF 2E, MtAw 2E & BtP
                            LGBT+ in CoD games

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
                              As we are about Late Aniquity / Early Middle Ages in Britain - I think it's okay to share fan created Lodge based on WtA Black Spiral Dancers - it's all started in times of Romans conquare of Isles so I think they can be used to mark more historicity in games. Even if they are totally fan created.

                              "Yep. Yap, yeppers. We'll put the wall here, along that there ley line, thanks. Y'all got them there rituals prepped?"

                              "We have, Emperor Hadrian."

                              --Khanwulf

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