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  • Pack Dynamics: Tribe Combinations

    So to preface this: I've not yet fully read through W:F (2nd Ed.). But I'm looking for answers from people that have played and ran W:tF games.

    I want to know how the tribes interact with a Pack.
    1. Are packs typically comprised of more than 2 or 3 in separate Tribes?
    2. When an Uratha goes through the First Change, how do they find the Tribes and join?



    Frequent Story Teller for the Circle of Five gaming group.

  • #2
    1) Normally yes.

    2) The game sucks at explaining how a werewolf goes from first change to be a pc fresh from chargen. There are little bits here and there.

    One is a after the first change a werewolf is found by a pack and he joins them temporarily to learn the ropes and they help him find a tribe before setting him "free". Which in my opinion lack sense unless the pack expected the newly change werewolf to stick around and fill a position.

    Another one is the newly change are presented to a moot (sort of a meeting of local packs) and either they are offered a tribe to teach them or they just form a temporal pack with other newly changed. With the tribes sending gauging the newly change to see who is a better fit.

    Comment


    • #3
      Hmm, I'm liking this idea that a nearby pack may adopt the PCs into their own pack long enough to "rear" them as it were, before forcing them out to make their own Pack (but with the knowledge they've given them). Kind-of like a tough love parent Pack. Introducing them to the channels of the Tribes and their Patron Spirit and tips and tricks to survive.



      Frequent Story Teller for the Circle of Five gaming group.

      Comment


      • #4
        Sorry about that, let us try that again.

        Originally posted by xiongrey View Post
        Are packs typically comprised of more than 2 or 3 in separate Tribes?
        Yes-ish. Certain areas might have more of a tribal identity. The Blood Talons in the Basra hunting ground, for instance, are getting rid of everyone not a Blood Talon. Alternatively an area that has been controlled by one tribe might not allow members of other tribes to stay. It can be a pack-based thing, too. If a family has a propensity to create werewolves, that family might form a pack. In some areas like a major city with a melting pot of ideas and cultures you may find members of different tribes in that pack, but in a more isolated location or a family that prides itself on tradition and heritage you might have everyone be part of one tribe.

        When an Uratha goes through the First Change, how do they find the Tribes and join?
        You've made contact with the spirit world. It can guide you through emissaries of the Firstborn. Werewolves from other tribes might seek you out. You might stumble into another group and they'd direct you to the right place. Groups are often looking for recruitment, but at the least they'll want you to go someplace fitting. Forsaken would probably direct you to one of the Forsaken tribes, a pack of Pure might not convert you to their tribe but would certainly get you started on the right foot by burning off those auspice brands. Then you have ghost wolf lodges like the Temple of Apollo who might not guide you to any tribe and just keep you to themselves. And it's possible you'll never meet any, for whatever reason, and end up a ghost wolf yourself.[/QUOTE]

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by LokiRavenSpeak View Post
          1) Normally yes.

          2) The game sucks at explaining how a werewolf goes from first change to be a pc fresh from chargen. There are little bits here and there.

          One is a after the first change a werewolf is found by a pack and he joins them temporarily to learn the ropes and they help him find a tribe before setting him "free". Which in my opinion lack sense unless the pack expected the newly change werewolf to stick around and fill a position.

          Another one is the newly change are presented to a moot (sort of a meeting of local packs) and either they are offered a tribe to teach them or they just form a temporal pack with other newly changed. With the tribes sending gauging the newly change to see who is a better fit.
          I recommend you give chapter 2 another read-thru. Nuzusul are quite damned obvious, not only to spirits, who harass the soon-to-be predator but the reek of the incoming First Change is one of the easiest trails to follow, for good or ill. Assuming you share borders with Pure, would you let them torture an innocent into addled brain-washing, hateful spiritual supremacy fascist ideology? Or let him potentially tear his own family apart instead of just maybe benevolently abduct him into the shadow and let his fury peak where the damage would be far from long lasting?

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Malus View Post

            I recommend you give chapter 2 another read-thru. Nuzusul are quite damned obvious, not only to spirits, who harass the soon-to-be predator but the reek of the incoming First Change is one of the easiest trails to follow, for good or ill. Assuming you share borders with Pure, would you let them torture an innocent into addled brain-washing, hateful spiritual supremacy fascist ideology? Or let him potentially tear his own family apart instead of just maybe benevolently abduct him into the shadow and let his fury peak where the damage would be far from long lasting?
            That a lots of assuming and you know what they they say about assuming too much.

            That implies that A) The new change happen in a contested territory or in the territory of the pack in question. Otherwise they are risking their neck and leaving their territory undefended for little gain. Unless of course, they need to booster their numbers.

            B) Considering that an strategy of the pure is faking new changes to ambush forsaken. It implies that the forsaken pack dont know about this or never felt for that before hand.

            C) Sure, lets assume the pack grab the new change and shove him into the shadow so he can minimize the damage. Which is not the same as teaching him the ropes, the first one is temporary measure the later is a extended effort. Why would they continue the teaching if they dont have the intention of the cub joining their pack? It implies the pack exist in a vacuum and have nothing else to do that teach a cub. No projects or border to defend that require their attention.

            D) Also implies that there is only 1 pack of pure and 1 pack of Forsaken between the newly changed. With more than 2 packs of forsaken i could see the issue of each one thinking the other one would solve the problem and they continue with their day.

            I will grant you that such a philanthropic pack might exist but they wouldn't be the standard. Unless one would shit on the setting as written (Which i am all in favor off).

            Also dont bother to answer, i blocked you but it didnt took for some reason.
            Last edited by LokiRavenSpeak; 07-26-2017, 09:31 AM.

            Comment


            • #7
              xiongrey You might check out the Idigam Chronicle Anthology, it has some in-world depictions of this stuff

              Originally posted by LokiRavenSpeak View Post
              That implies that A) The new change happen in a contested territory or in the territory of the pack in question. Otherwise they are risking their neck and leaving their territory undefended for little gain. Unless of course, they need to booster their numbers.
              Werewolves leave their territories all the time, there is no barrier to it. It's practically part of the job considering how large packs might get.

              B) Considering that an strategy of the pure is faking new changes to ambush forsaken. It implies that the forsaken pack dont know about this or never felt for that before hand.
              Doesn't say that in the core book. But it would be silly to think that Forsaken would never go out and try to find a new change because it might be Pure. It's not as if hunting a werewolf who doesn't know what he's doing is the safest thing in the world to do to begin with.

              C) Sure, lets assume the pack grab the new change and shove him into the shadow so he can minimize the damage. Which is not the same as teaching him the ropes, the first one is temporary measure the later is a extended effort. Why would they continue the teaching if they dont have the intention of the cub joining their pack? It implies the pack exist in a vacuum and have nothing else to do that teach a cub. No projects or border to defend that require their attention.
              Because the Forsaken are part of a community and the less werewolves who are part of it the weaker it is. The more werewolves who are not recruited, the more werewolves who fall into the hands of the Pure, the Bale Hounds, or just lazy ghost wolves.

              D) Also implies that there is only 1 pack of pure and 1 pack of Forsaken between the newly changed. With more than 2 packs of forsaken i could see the issue of each one thinking the other one would solve the problem and they continue with their day.
              As part of a community, neighbors often talk with one another. There's even a rite to assist with it if they don't have access to phones.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by nofather View Post
                Doesn't say that in the core book. But it would be silly to think that Forsaken would never go out and try to find a new change because it might be Pure. It's not as if hunting a werewolf who doesn't know what he's doing is the safest thing in the world to do to begin with.
                It is from the Pure sourcebook. And I was referring to the example of a newly change between the territories of Pure and Forsaken packs.


                Originally posted by nofather View Post
                Because the Forsaken are part of a community and the less werewolves who are part of it the weaker it is. The more werewolves who are not recruited, the more werewolves who fall into the hands of the Pure, the Bale Hounds, or just lazy ghost wolves.
                Considering that their pack is ultimate authority/loyalty for each werewolf and that Forsaken of different packs attack each other for territory all the time. I just dont see the community part and how it could work without endless resentment brewing into all out wars. The game tell you the community part but it does a piss poor job at explaining how it work and why beyond the "they are a community because they are". Tribes like Requiem clans tend to, when taken to their logical conclusion, be meaningless outside of the mechanical bonus and ban because in the end every Uratha is loyal to their pack first as presented in 1E. In 2nd though the whole pack before the world is minimized in its mention but not really replaced with something else.

                Originally posted by nofather View Post
                As part of a community, neighbors often talk with one another. There's even a rite to assist with it if they don't have access to phones.
                That would imply that the pack is willing to tell another forsaken pack that they gonna leave their territory undefended for a period of time while they take care of something.

                Something i forgot to add is that my main issue with the setting as presented isnt the temporal rescue of a new changed werewolf but its continued instruction.
                Last edited by LokiRavenSpeak; 07-26-2017, 09:46 AM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by LokiRavenSpeak View Post
                  Considering that their pack is ultimate authority/loyalty for each werewolf and that Forsaken of different packs attack each other for territory all the time.
                  This isn't the case. It happens in times of trouble or need and upheaval, but it isn't the standard.

                  I just dont see the community part and how it could work without endless resentment brewing into all out wars. The game tell you the community part but it does a piss poor job at explaining how it work and why beyond the "they are a community because they are". Tribes like Requiem clans tend to, when taken to their logical conclusion, be meaningless outside of the mechanical bonus and ban because in the end every Uratha is loyal to their pack first as presented in 1E. In 2nd though the whole pack before the world is minimized in its mention but not really replaced with something else.
                  This is why I noted your comment about the ambushing being not part of the core book. You clearly have access to books beyond the core, where these things are more fleshed out.

                  If you want a replacement for the pack, you could look at lodges. Generally a pack is the end of the decision making process, but guided by a tribal outlook. If tribes are 'college,' a pack led by engineers is going to try to solve problems in a way engineers would, like a pack led by historians would look into a historian solution. I think college is a good analogy for tribes. It offers 'higher education' for werewolves, you go to the one that appeals to you, and ideally they put you out there with the training to do what you want. The tribal connections are really strong in some places, just like how going to the same college as an employer can help you get a job. But in other places it's just a nod of recognition. That said, a lot of the stuff from Tribes of the Moon still seems to apply.

                  But when you have a lodge, which are basically cults, you have an entire other agenda. It might not go against the pack but it will likely supercede pack loyalties. It's probably more common to find single-lodge packs than single-tribe ones, in modern times at least.

                  That would imply that the pack is willing to tell another forsaken pack that they gonna leave their territory undefended for a period of time while they take care of something.
                  Which would be a problem if the entire pack was going to abandon the territory to pick up a single first change, but that's likely not necessary. Communicating about going out there and deciding who's going to do it isn't displaying weakness. Two packs can even compete over them if they want more members, it doesn't have to result in the death of one pack and destruction of their territory.

                  Something i forgot to add is that my main issue with the setting as presented isnt the temporal rescue of a new changed werewolf but its continued instruction.
                  I'm sure this has been explained in other books. But it's clear from the core that you're not meant to be dealing with 'new' werewolves. From character creation you're already three Renown in. Even if you start with the First Change Story, at the end you're meant to transition to a more standard game. At that point, the werewolf knows much of the book's setting, being taught by other members of their tribes, wiser members of the pack, totems and enemies and dreams from Luna.

                  I'm not saying there should be no expansion on what it's like as a 'pup' werewolf. Just that the core book is trying to get you into the game and hunting, not lingering in the first steps and backstory. Thinking about it, an 'Alpha and Omega' book would be nice, with the first part explaining what it's like for new werewolves, and the last part dealing with end-game content and elder wolves.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by LokiRavenSpeak View Post

                    That a lots of assuming and you know what they they say about assuming too much.

                    That implies that A) The new change happen in a contested territory or in the territory of the pack in question. Otherwise they are risking their neck and leaving their territory undefended for little gain. Unless of course, they need to booster their numbers.
                    The example above was that: an example of a scenario. Examples by definition require assumptions and hypothetical constructs. Hell the whole act of writing fiction, or roleplaying hinges on this sort of thing. Example of something you skipped on your reading: leaving your territory and familiarizing yourself with the additional neighborhood's lay of land is exactly how packs expand. Nevermind that Forsaken don't just invade other's territories just because: usually this is done because the residents let significant prey slip thru their borders, or are ill equipped to deal with it. It's not to collect some "pack of the month" award given by the Lunes.

                    Originally posted by LokiRavenSpeak View Post
                    B) Considering that an strategy of the pure is faking new changes to ambush forsaken. It implies that the forsaken pack dont know about this or never felt for that before hand.
                    Every Pure pack has the capacity to fake the spiritual stench of a first change, that Uratha can sniff up like say, blood? I severely doubt it. Look who's throwing undue assumptions now. Even if they could go thru with the con, Blood Talons wouldn't take kindly to it. Yes, I am assuming your setting has Blood Talons in it. Is that a big assumption? Sorry if it is.

                    Originally posted by LokiRavenSpeak View Post
                    C) Sure, lets assume the pack grab the new change and shove him into the shadow so he can minimize the damage. Which is not the same as teaching him the ropes, the first one is temporary measure the later is a extended effort. Why would they continue the teaching if they dont have the intention of the cub joining their pack? It implies the pack exist in a vacuum and have nothing else to do that teach a cub. No projects or border to defend that require their attention.
                    Logic dictates that you must first deal with the person who's going insane before you can even attempt at explaining what the hell is going on, because they're unlikely to believe you otherwise. After the cub was reigned in, you teach him. To do otherwise, or assume that just shoving Nuzusul into the Shadow unsupervised equates a proper indoctrination is about as useful as trying to bring someone back from Kuruth by splashing some water on them. IE hilariously useless. As to why you indoctrinate a Ghost Wolf? I've explained it to you plenty of times. Uratha aren't immune to possession, and in fact rely on their packs to protect them from such threat. Can you imagine the havok a spirit could wreak with such a recipient? Again that's just one example of the ways that being a lone Ghost Wolf sucks. Or the way his unrestrained urges attracts the bad kind of spirits, and then those spirits take an interest on his loved ones.

                    Furthermore, like nofather said; You don't need a whole pack to deal with a Nuzusul. Do I have an Irraka? Can he kidnap the kid? Can he remain hidden while the change boils over? Can he contact the pack if the Pure come knocking? Do I have a Hunter In Darkness or an Iron Master, or hell, a Blood Talon who can do any of that? Nuzusul are literally sacred endeavors to the Suthar Anzuth, did you know?

                    Originally posted by LokiRavenSpeak View Post
                    D) Also implies that there is only 1 pack of pure and 1 pack of Forsaken between the newly changed. With more than 2 packs of forsaken i could see the issue of each one thinking the other one would solve the problem and they continue with their day.[

                    I will grant you that such a philanthropic pack might exist but they wouldn't be the standard. Unless one would shit on the setting as written (Which i am all in favor off).
                    If you have other packs around you and you want to keep your head attached to your body you usually want to know what they're up to, which spirit is their totem and whom they recruit. The whole concept of Tur hinges on open lines of communication.

                    Originally posted by LokiRavenSpeak View Post
                    Also dont bother to answer, i blocked you but it didnt took for some reason.
                    Totally not ironic Q.Q

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Thank you everyone, this is helpful ^.^.
                      nofather , Thanks for the heads up on the Anthology I'll have to take that off the shelf and read it alongside my reread of Harry Potter ^.^. Which stories would you suggest I read for that purpose?

                      So I think I should state what I'm wanting to use this knowledge for. I'll be starting a chronicle for my Fiancé, my brother, and his wife in about 6+ Months. Well the plan is to start w/ an entire Innocents story to get the characters used to each other bond-wise and to introduce the stranger things of the world. It will be a full story. Then the second story of the chronicle will be a Time skip to college years and they take a trip to a mountain for some camping in Spring Break. The story is going to be presented as a typical Mortal Horror story on a mountain (a la Until Dawn). The point of the second story is that it will be a full horror Mortals story but with one of several branching story hooks that will end in the characters either being Embraced, going through First Change, getting Lost in the Hedge, and a few other ideas. I'll know by the time we even get to the second story which story hook I'll be using by watching the players and what they're enjoying about the game but it will be but it will be a surprise to them (none of them frequent these forums ^.^).

                      So what I'm trying to use here: One of the troupe is close to or goes through the First Change and by then end of the story the Forsaken (or one of, I'm still brain storming) makes them apart of their Pack to teach them the ropes. That all happens at the end of the Story though. What I'm looking for is both how to narrate the time skip between the end of the second story and the beggining of the third (where they'll have full chargen Werewolf char sheets). And before this thread I couldn't think of anything that didn't seem tacky (like how did they choose a Tribe as that seems pretty important).

                      Currently, based on what I have seen here from you all is I'll subtly introduce the different NPCs and they'll be apart of different Tribes (though I wont state that till the Time Skip. they'll just act in ways apropriate to that Tribe) that way when the players do the WW chargen process after Story 2 they'll have a specific NPC that they know is apart of their Tribe and who likely showed them the ropes in.



                      Frequent Story Teller for the Circle of Five gaming group.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        The whole experience of the First Change, from the point of view of a mortal as the spirit world make them their play-thing (giving them the Reception condition to model it is a good idea - you could also give them the Fugue condition regarding what they've done while in the spirit's thrall and tailor the fugues to the spirit's ban - night terror spirit making someone relive their nightmares every night at 3am for example and then let them try and figure what they've done in their time slips) and different packs compete to make their lives into a living nightmare culminating with a climax that concludes in "you can never go back to them" (till suddenly his friends turn up supernatural themselves by some fickle twist of an uncaring fate) sounds like an epic story. Props.
                        Last edited by Malus; 07-26-2017, 04:17 PM.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by nofather View Post
                          This isn't the case. It happens in times of trouble or need and upheaval, but it isn't the standard.
                          It could be a way to handle it but normally is more a question want/can, whether the pack wants a territory and then whether they can take it. The backcover of Territories summarize Uratha society pretty nicely.

                          Originally posted by Territories backcover
                          “I don’t give a damn if you think you have some sort of right to this place. I don’t care what the Shadow looked like before you got here, and I don’t care if you’re the best thing to happen to this land since the Fall. The only thing that matters is if you can stop me and mine from taking this place from you. If you can do that, then it’s yours by right. If you can’t, you had no right trying to call it your own in the first place.”
                          Every other Uratha outside of the pack is a potential enemy, every newly change that isnt in your pack is potentially an enemy that will come to steal your territory tomorrow. Packs under you are enemies to never show weakness unless they get into their head to steal your territory and packs above you are to be defended against or flew under the radar because as your territory improves, more will want it. The Pure are enemies that would not follow the "Ethical" rules of battle while the Forsaken are the ones who will mostly would.

                          Even The Rockies mention that their setup is a rarity as Max Roman (an local werewolf) push forward for cooperation between tribes to teach newly changed werewolves when normally most of them would die shortly in the standard "Swim or die".

                          Originally posted by The Rockies pg 20
                          They also gain a chance to choose their own destiny, (mostly) without undue pressure to conform to any given ideology. This is largely due to Max Roman, whose efforts to pacify the Forsaken’s enemies and unify the tribes have influenced several packs to offer help to the newly Changed atmosphere throughout the Rocky Mountain region. It’s anyone’s guess how long this temporary respite will last and most say it won’t be long at all but for now, novices have a better chance to grow into their wolf nature without being torn apart first than they do in many other places.

                          Originally posted by nofather View Post
                          This is why I noted your comment about the ambushing being not part of the core book. You clearly have access to books beyond the core, where these things are more fleshed out.
                          Its from the Pure source book a very nice book that weirdly enough deals on how a Newly change Uratha goes from there to be fresh from chargen. With all the methods the Pure uses to sell the Pure cause to them which many make sense in how insidious they are. The fake first change is also a nice plot point

                          Originally posted by Pure pg 140
                          The False First Change: The Pure have Renown markings, but they aren’t as obvious as the those of the Forsaken. As such, a Pure werewolf can pretend to be going through a First Change to flush out local Forsaken packs. Using this ruse requires either springing a quick ambush or having a good escape route, unless the Pure pack already knows the local Uratha and is prepared for them. This method makes for good reconnaissance, though it does tend to upset Lunes.
                          Originally posted by nofather View Post
                          If you want a replacement for the pack, you could look at lodges. Generally a pack is the end of the decision making process, but guided by a tribal outlook. If tribes are 'college,' a pack led by engineers is going to try to solve problems in a way engineers would, like a pack led by historians would look into a historian solution. I think college is a good analogy for tribes. It offers 'higher education' for werewolves, you go to the one that appeals to you, and ideally they put you out there with the training to do what you want. The tribal connections are really strong in some places, just like how going to the same college as an employer can help you get a job. But in other places it's just a nod of recognition. That said, a lot of the stuff from Tribes of the Moon still seems to apply.
                          Personally i just gave up on the setting as written and took Denver as the Standard. While i like your idea of lodges there is little conversion of them to 2nd edition. We got the merit but not a guide to their special abilities (like the 1k Teeth lodge only suffering bashing when falling from or getting hit by a car)

                          Originally posted by nofather View Post
                          Which would be a problem if the entire pack was going to abandon the territory to pick up a single first change, but that's likely not necessary. Communicating about going out there and deciding who's going to do it isn't displaying weakness. Two packs can even compete over them if they want more members, it doesn't have to result in the death of one pack and destruction of their territory.
                          Thats a good point. They still leaving their territories with less than optimal defenses but not totally defenseless.


                          Originally posted by nofather View Post
                          I'm sure this has been explained in other books. But it's clear from the core that you're not meant to be dealing with 'new' werewolves. From character creation you're already three Renown in. Even if you start with the First Change Story, at the end you're meant to transition to a more standard game. At that point, the werewolf knows much of the book's setting, being taught by other members of their tribes, wiser members of the pack, totems and enemies and dreams from Luna.

                          I'm not saying there should be no expansion on what it's like as a 'pup' werewolf. Just that the core book is trying to get you into the game and hunting, not lingering in the first steps and backstory. Thinking about it, an 'Alpha and Omega' book would be nice, with the first part explaining what it's like for new werewolves, and the last part dealing with end-game content and elder wolves.
                          The only one that comes close is the Pure source book but its for the pure and their arguments are.......iffy to apply into forsaken. Its definetly a weakness in Werewolf that the Core starting point is from that part. If i had to guess they copy/paste the chargen from Masquerade ever since without realizing that Masquerade setting is pretty intuititive while others lines arent.

                          I mean you got the prince on top, the sheriff as his enforcer and the Seneschal as his right hand everyone else is normally under that. Your powers are 3 depending on your clan and raising them doesnt require justification. Easy to get into and easy to start at that "level" with new players. Other lines from Apocalypse and onward are a poor fit with this model of Chargen and noone is more obvious that forsaken for that. After year of teaching 1st and now 2nd edition to new players is that OPP games seems to been made with the idea that all the players read the book with is not the standard. Most new players never read the book. And then their chargen bombards you with choice and fiddly bits one has to make without a clear understanding of the weight of such choices.

                          Auspice and Tribe are complicated enough considering what a tribe is depends entirely on the DMs setting but then you got Renown (with it special abilities), Gifts, Rites, Blood, Bone, Touchstones, Totem, Wolfblooded. Lots of choices that the typical player who just comes with a character concept and wont touch the book ever is ill handle to deal with. And i am not saying that apocalypse did it any better as it chargen is also a copy paste from masquerade but at least the setting was fleshed enough and made sense for a Garu to know stuff because the social structure in place allow him to learn said stuff.

                          Forsaken doesnt have that as presented. It just assumes they do without going on the details which are essential otherwise logical question do pop out on contradictions.

                          Originally posted by xiongrey View Post
                          T
                          So I think I should state what I'm wanting to use this knowledge for. I'll be starting a chronicle for my Fiancé, my brother, and his wife in about 6+ Months. Well the plan is to start w/ an entire Innocents story to get the characters used to each other bond-wise and to introduce the stranger things of the world. It will be a full story. Then the second story of the chronicle will be a Time skip to college years and they take a trip to a mountain for some camping in Spring Break. The story is going to be presented as a typical Mortal Horror story on a mountain (a la Until Dawn). The point of the second story is that it will be a full horror Mortals story but with one of several branching story hooks that will end in the characters either being Embraced, going through First Change, getting Lost in the Hedge, and a few other ideas. I'll know by the time we even get to the second story which story hook I'll be using by watching the players and what they're enjoying about the game but it will be but it will be a surprise to them (none of them frequent these forums ^.^).

                          So what I'm trying to use here: One of the troupe is close to or goes through the First Change and by then end of the story the Forsaken (or one of, I'm still brain storming) makes them apart of their Pack to teach them the ropes. That all happens at the end of the Story though. What I'm looking for is both how to narrate the time skip between the end of the second story and the beggining of the third (where they'll have full chargen Werewolf char sheets). And before this thread I couldn't think of anything that didn't seem tacky (like how did they choose a Tribe as that seems pretty important).

                          Currently, based on what I have seen here from you all is I'll subtly introduce the different NPCs and they'll be apart of different Tribes (though I wont state that till the Time Skip. they'll just act in ways apropriate to that Tribe) that way when the players do the WW chargen process after Story 2 they'll have a specific NPC that they know is apart of their Tribe and who likely showed them the ropes in.
                          If you are running a crossover (i think thats your plan, unless i missread) then i would say to use 1st edition as Changeling is not out yet for 2nd. As for Werewolf with other splats i would recommend the Chronicle guide which has an option of Werewolves (which are incredibly weak, except some builds) to be packless but have a personal totem which may serve as mentor in this case. I say this because Werewolf tend to hog the spotlight a little due to the fact that they have a whole other plane that neither Changeling nor vampires can interact with.
                          Last edited by LokiRavenSpeak; 07-26-2017, 04:59 PM.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by LokiRavenSpeak View Post
                            Every other Uratha outside of the pack is a potential enemy, every newly change that isnt in your pack is potentially an enemy that will come to steal your territory tomorrow. Packs under you are enemies to never show weakness unless they get into their head to steal your territory and packs above you are to be defended against or flew under the radar because as your territory improves, more will want it. The Pure are enemies that would not follow the "Ethical" rules of battle while the Forsaken are the ones who will mostly would.

                            Even The Rockies mention that their setup is a rarity as Max Roman (an local werewolf) push forward for cooperation between tribes to teach newly changed werewolves when normally most of them would die shortly in the standard "Swim or die".
                            You know the meaning of the word potential, and you know it doesn't mean 'always actively antagonistic.' Yes, things happen, and if someone needs something more than you they're going to try to take it. But like I said, that's under extreme circumstances. The Rockies setup was a rarity because it's basically a protectorate.

                            Personally i just gave up on the setting as written and took Denver as the Standard. While i like your idea of lodges there is little conversion of them to 2nd edition. We got the merit but not a guide to their special abilities (like the 1k Teeth lodge only suffering bashing when falling from or getting hit by a car)
                            Honestly if I read the books the way you did I'd probably not like the setting either. You seem to take the most negative view of every part of the setting, like the quote above, even when it's been superceded by something else.

                            Here's one from second edition.

                            'Most packs try to maintain at least neutral relationships with their neighbors. Few need any more enemies, but the give and take of borders must come at someone’s expense.
                            This is what the older werewolves, the strong ones at the top, would have their lessers believe. Elders often espouse this “tooth and claw” philosophy, and they can enforce it. Younger or more thoughtful werewolves consider the idea so much bullshit. It’s falling back on basest instinct of beasts and spirits, where dominance is its own justification. The Uratha can rise above such crude urges — at least in theory.
                            When multiple packs coexist, the idea of simple separation between “stronger” and “weaker” falls apart like a rotting carcass. The predator–prey dynamic requires that werewolves have prey to hunt. Any region worth sustaining multiple packs must have prey in abundance, which means dangers fill the night. Packs cannot afford to fight with each other all the time. It weakens them. Their enemies are opportunistic. Packs weakened by infighting become easy prey.
                            It even goes on to explain that when packs confront overwhelming threats they can form protectorates, which aren't as rare as they were in first edition.

                            And it's a toolbox setting, you can do what you want with it. But you can't realistically blame the books or setting when your own variant of it depicts a particularly unfriendly variant of the world.

                            Most new players never read the book. And then their chargen bombards you with choice and fiddly bits one has to make without a clear understanding of the weight of such choices.
                            I know this is an unpopular view, but they really should. Because it answers all these questions and gives you a depiction of what the game's going to be like.

                            Auspice and Tribe are complicated enough considering what a tribe is depends entirely on the DMs setting but then you got Renown (with it special abilities), Gifts, Rites, Blood, Bone, Touchstones, Totem, Wolfblooded. Lots of choices that the typical player who just comes with a character concept and wont touch the book ever is ill handle to deal with. And i am not saying that apocalypse did it any better as it chargen is also a copy paste from masquerade but at least the setting was fleshed enough and made sense for a Garu to know stuff because the social structure in place allow him to learn said stuff.

                            Forsaken doesnt have that as presented. It just assumes they do without going on the details which are essential otherwise logical question do pop out on contradictions.
                            That's great but a simple reading clears up most of this this stuff. If you need to compare it to something else, auspice is clan or path, tribe is order or covenant. If you don't, the book explains what these things are on their own. The same with everything else you've mentioned. If a player decides not to read it and just considers the core rule book to be a paperweight, then it doesn't matter how informative it is. The only change that could be made to the book to inform people who don't want to read is to have it beam the information directly into their head somehow.
                            Last edited by nofather; 07-26-2017, 05:41 PM.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by LokiRavenSpeak View Post
                              If you are running a crossover (i think thats your plan, unless i missread) then i would say to use 1st edition as Changeling is not out yet for 2nd. As for Werewolf with other splats i would recommend the Chronicle guide which has an option of Werewolves (which are incredibly weak, except some builds) to be packless but have a personal totem which may serve as mentor in this case. I say this because Werewolf tend to hog the spotlight a little due to the fact that they have a whole other plane that neither Changeling nor vampires can interact with.
                              It's not going to be Crossover by the time it's done. The idea behind it is that they'll go through two full stories where I watch them and their actions and how they like to play their characters and I morph the basic setting of the second story to fit that gameline. If I do it right, the players will never know that I thought of anything else other than the gameline that I chose. As for changeling, 2nd Ed will def be out by the time it comes to the second story. I've got at least 6+ months before even the first story would start.



                              Frequent Story Teller for the Circle of Five gaming group.

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