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  • #16
    Alright, so LokiRavenSpeak's whole interpretation of a species comes from the overly dramatic quote of an unbalanced Blood Talon.

    It isn't a question of wishing more territory. The Wolf Must Hunt. If prey is slipping into your borders because of another pack's inaction or failure or downright nonexistence, you must defend it, which entails, usually, annexing the source of the problem. Nuzusul are indeed a type of prey to be pursued. If your neighbor is keeping their shit together, you don't need to fuck with them unless it's something like a demand from your totem, or you have a ban that makes you overly insecure or paranoid. If the setting conformed to your views, protectorates wouldn't be a thing, plain and simple.

    Regarding your sudden quotation of 1e material which you've been previously disregarding? Makes me wonder if you are being intentionally dense just to dismiss 2e.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by nofather View Post
      You know the meaning of the word potential, and you know it doesn't mean 'always actively antagonistic.' Yes, things happen, and if someone needs something more than you they're going to try to take it.

      Honestly if I read the books the way you did I'd probably not like the setting either. You seem to take the most negative view of every part of the setting, like the quote above, even when it's been superceded by something else. But like I said, that's under extreme circumstances.
      There is a difference on what i said. I said that Want not need. If a pack want the territory of your pack (not need, just want) and they can take it, they normally will. I disagree with the part of needing extreme circunstances.

      Originally posted by nofather View Post
      It even goes on to explain that when packs confront overwhelming threats they can form protectorates, which aren't as rare as they were in first edition.

      And it's a toolbox setting, you can do what you want with it. But you can't realistically blame the books or setting when your own variant of it depicts a particularly unfriendly variant of the world.
      I dont think i took the dimmest view on the setting as much as i took what was written in 1E and the implication there off. And yes i can blame the books because other lines did it. The book telling that "yes, protectorates exist" is nice but it doesnt cover how they work and thats an issue. A loose society of furry monster with anger issues really requires a chain of command to settle disputes otherwise is endless fight over slights. There is no social structure explore in any forsaken book except one which is an alternative setting book and even that one decided to cut it short to talk about how each Uratha is as a lover....for some reason.

      Protectorates as presented in 2E are seem mostly as "they get together and cooperate to fight a powerful prey but then mostly keep out of each other way ". Which is nice but doesnt really handle on pack vs pack issues. The quote you mentioned just says that younger Uratha tend not to believe in that and can do it just when there is enough plentiful prey around. And even then it goes on saying how is mostly "in theory" the same way 1E introduces protectorates (who had another name, clutches i think) and said how they are destined to fail because of Uratha nature.


      Originally posted by nofather View Post
      I know this is an unpopular view, but they really should. Because it answers all these questions and gives you a depiction of what the game's going to be like.
      I agree but thats not how it goes down. New players come and wont touch the book and chargen in a nightmare because they keep using a starting level unapropiate for the game line.

      Originally posted by nofather View Post
      That's great but a simple reading clears up most of this this stuff. If you need to compare it to something else, auspice is clan or path, tribe is order or covenant. If you don't, the book explains what these things are on their own. The same with everything else you've mentioned. If a player decides not to read it and just considers the core rule book to be a paperweight, then it doesn't matter how informative it is. The only change that could be made to the book to inform people who don't want to read is to have it beam the information directly into their head somehow.
      I think you misread me, i said that the model of Masquerade chargen is only viable to Masquerade. Requiem, Forsaken and Mage all suffer from the same overcomplicated fiddly chargen in one level or another. Requiem being the lesser offender and Awakening being the worse and Forsaken being a close second to Awakening. Is asking the player to choose thing that affect long term play before he has an idea of the game the DM is running and/how the game works.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by xiongrey View Post
        It's not going to be Crossover by the time it's done. The idea behind it is that they'll go through two full stories where I watch them and their actions and how they like to play their characters and I morph the basic setting of the second story to fit that gameline. If I do it right, the players will never know that I thought of anything else other than the gameline that I chose. As for changeling, 2nd Ed will def be out by the time it comes to the second story. I've got at least 6+ months before even the first story would start.
        Okay if all of them (at least 3 people) are going to be Urathas, i recomend the whole "Protectorate option" because is one thing to put 1 newly changed werewolf into a already formed pack but putting 3 is gonna shift the balance of power a lot on that pack and their surrounding. The way i handle newly changed is 2 representatives of each pack all get together and give a basic explanation on how thing function and the PC forming a temporal pack (without totem) so you get them together and learning to cooperate but with the option of splitting up if things dont work out.

        On the mechanical side i would recommend chargen with only 1 point of renown (the auspice 1), 1 gift (the lunar one), no Bone, no blood, no totem, no touchstones (maybe just flesh one) and no rites. To let them really get use slowly to each facet of the Urathas. It might seem like little but even then they got to get used to: Forms and their special abilities, Flaring Renown, their Gift, the spirit world (and how it affect the human world) and Hunter aspects. Which would the basic tools they got before getting into more complicated stuff like all the gift options, Wolf rituals, Pack rituals, other renowns and blood/Bone/Touchstones/Totem.

        For example: See if you can read 1E take on the Shadow which is WAY better than 2E explanation and they have a section on things a Uratha can make a spirit affect the human world via bargain. Which makes them simulate some powers before they get them and sells the animistic angle a lot better.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by LokiRavenSpeak View Post

          Okay if all of them (at least 3 people) are going to be Urathas, i recomend the whole "Protectorate option" because is one thing to put 1 newly changed werewolf into a already formed pack but putting 3 is gonna shift the balance of power a lot on that pack and their surrounding. The way i handle newly changed is 2 representatives of each pack all get together and give a basic explanation on how thing function and the PC forming a temporal pack (without totem) so you get them together and learning to cooperate but with the option of splitting up if things dont work out.

          On the mechanical side i would recommend chargen with only 1 point of renown (the auspice 1), 1 gift (the lunar one), no Bone, no blood, no totem, no touchstones (maybe just flesh one) and no rites. To let them really get use slowly to each facet of the Urathas. It might seem like little but even then they got to get used to: Forms and their special abilities, Flaring Renown, their Gift, the spirit world (and how it affect the human world) and Hunter aspects. Which would the basic tools they got before getting into more complicated stuff like all the gift options, Wolf rituals, Pack rituals, other renowns and blood/Bone/Touchstones/Totem.

          For example: See if you can read 1E take on the Shadow which is WAY better than 2E explanation and they have a section on things a Uratha can make a spirit affect the human world via bargain. Which makes them simulate some powers before they get them and sells the animistic angle a lot better.
          Hmm, I really do like that this way would allow them (the players) to really get a slow feel for how the different facets of playing an Uratha works.

          What I was starting to form in my mind was that one Pack kind of adopts the 3 pups at the end of Story 2. Then there's a slight time gap between Stories 2 and 3 where the characters are taught the very basics but they aren't full members of the pack nor have they signed anything with that totem but now they do have connections to members of their respective Tribes. Then the 3rd Story occurs which is some sort of threat that the Main Pack is going to deal with and the PCs are told to stay and upkeep the grounds or something else. But the PCs are brought into it in their own way while the main pack is away. At the end of the story, the PCs win (at a cost of course) and the Main Pack, in almost a ritualised manner, chase them off. Essentially kind of like a mama bird pushing her chick off the nest. Like maybe they take them to somewhere not their territory (but not technically claimed either) and then they chase them in or something.

          And the 3rd story could be tailored to use a lot of the Werewolf staples like using renown (perhaps they still only have 1) and gifts and such. the fourth story could be all about getting their totem and formalizing their own Pack.



          Frequent Story Teller for the Circle of Five gaming group.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by LokiRavenSpeak View Post
            There is a difference on what i said. I said that Want not need. If a pack want the territory of your pack (not need, just want) and they can take it, they normally will. I disagree with the part of needing extreme circunstances.
            Yes, and that's not supported by the book. What you're describing are Bale Hounds of Mammon. 'Some werewolves fall to Mammon through an out-growth of their territorial instinct — they want more land to call their own, and often strive for more than they can feasibly control.' And again, that's a perfectly fine way to go about it, but it's not the setting as depicted.

            I dont think i took the dimmest view on the setting as much as i took what was written in 1E and the implication there off. And yes i can blame the books because other lines did it. The book telling that "yes, protectorates exist" is nice but it doesnt cover how they work and thats an issue. A loose society of furry monster with anger issues really requires a chain of command to settle disputes otherwise is endless fight over slights. There is no social structure explore in any forsaken book except one which is an alternative setting book and even that one decided to cut it short to talk about how each Uratha is as a lover....for some reason.
            It's been explored many times, there's even an entire book dedicated to it, the Pack, that depicts how relationships work within.

            Protectorates as presented in 2E are seem mostly as "they get together and cooperate to fight a powerful prey but then mostly keep out of each other way ". Which is nice but doesnt really handle on pack vs pack issues. The quote you mentioned just says that younger Uratha tend not to believe in that and can do it just when there is enough plentiful prey around. And even then it goes on saying how is mostly "in theory" the same way 1E introduces protectorates (who had another name, clutches i think) and said how they are destined to fail because of Uratha nature.
            Yes, and the Uratha nature is change. It's not wanton greed, except in the case of Ivory Claws. A protectorate requires stability, it IS stability, manifest, just like a nation. But Uratha change, individually, and at the pack level. And there's a whole section about it in the Pack, how they work, how they ar eoften structured, what they value, what tribal-oriented protectorates are going to look like and want.

            I agree but thats not how it goes down. New players come and wont touch the book and chargen in a nightmare because they keep using a starting level unapropiate for the game line.
            It's entirely appropriate. And we have a new player in this very thread who has said they're working their way through the book. You may only be encountering people who refuse to read but that's hardly the entirety of the gaming community.

            I think you misread me, i said that the model of Masquerade chargen is only viable to Masquerade. Requiem, Forsaken and Mage all suffer from the same overcomplicated fiddly chargen in one level or another. Requiem being the lesser offender and Awakening being the worse and Forsaken being a close second to Awakening. Is asking the player to choose thing that affect long term play before he has an idea of the game the DM is running and/how the game works.
            How the Werewolf setting works is depicted well before character creation. I'll grant that the mechanics are after it, but that's something that can be surmised by reading the introduction or looking at the table of contents. What kind of game the Storyteller is running is something that needs to be talked about between the Storyteller and the players, it's not something that can be decided by the book. The book does, however, assume you're using the standard approach to storytelling.

            Again, though, if your players aren't reading the books it doesn't matter if they're overcomplicated or under.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by xiongrey View Post

              Hmm, I really do like that this way would allow them (the players) to really get a slow feel for how the different facets of playing an Uratha works.

              What I was starting to form in my mind was that one Pack kind of adopts the 3 pups at the end of Story 2. Then there's a slight time gap between Stories 2 and 3 where the characters are taught the very basics but they aren't full members of the pack nor have they signed anything with that totem but now they do have connections to members of their respective Tribes. Then the 3rd Story occurs which is some sort of threat that the Main Pack is going to deal with and the PCs are told to stay and upkeep the grounds or something else. But the PCs are brought into it in their own way while the main pack is away. At the end of the story, the PCs win (at a cost of course) and the Main Pack, in almost a ritualised manner, chase them off. Essentially kind of like a mama bird pushing her chick off the nest. Like maybe they take them to somewhere not their territory (but not technically claimed either) and then they chase them in or something.

              And the 3rd story could be tailored to use a lot of the Werewolf staples like using renown (perhaps they still only have 1) and gifts and such. the fourth story could be all about getting their totem and formalizing their own Pack.
              That could work of course however a couple of mentions: The PCs can join the pack and leave afterwards. They might or might not put point in the totem merit but they can recover those when they leave. Why i am saying this because is a good way for them to learn pack rites which can only work on members of a pack.

              The chasing could work but maybe they can just be assigned to a territory to guard on their own. Mostly because is a little jarring for the usually "friendly" npcs to sundenly start chasing them out of the territory, just saying it could result in them derailing the plot because they think the elder pack is possesed or mindcontrolled.

              Originally posted by nofather View Post

              Yes, and that's not supported by the book. What you're describing are Bale Hounds of Mammon. 'Some werewolves fall to Mammon through an out-growth of their territorial instinct — they want more land to call their own, and often strive for more than they can feasibly control.' And again, that's a perfectly fine way to go about it, but it's not the setting as depicted.
              There is a difference between wanting certain territories and just start grabbing territories lefts and right. Werewolf treats a lot of things as territories/properties and fight each other for it. Be it location or wolfblooded. Is not balehound behavior to kick a pack from a territorie because either you want a more confortable territory or just shove them aside because you want a piece of it and it doesnt require dire circunstance either.

              Might makes right is how it goes.


              Originally posted by nofather View Post
              It's been explored many times, there's even an entire book dedicated to it, the Pack, that depicts how relationships work within.
              The pack suffers from the same problem the Rage suffer when describing a social structure. Its all broad strokes and little details and one can put anything on broad stroke and could certantly fly, is in the detail in which things break or stand. On the example of protectorate i could add "Or sometimes the leader pack is choosen by lotery" which without details on how that process work is as much use at those other examples.

              Originally posted by the pack 68;
              Sometimes the shifting boundaries between territories cause tensions and violence between packs. The ongoing skirmishes and antagonism between Uratha weakens all involved; each pack finds it harder to control their territory and keep it free of strong, hostile prey. Here, protectorates acknowledge differences between packs. They set structures to deal with disputes between packs without unduly weakening any individual. Limiting petty disputes keeps the hunt strong.
              This is the example the books provides that is closest to what we are talking about, one without an inminent threat. And its as much useful as my lotery option (less so at least mine tells you everything is decided by lotery). We got why they form and remain but never got the how they work. So they minimize disputes between packs (which i would point out "only happened in dire circuntances" must be a Bale Hound protectorate) but how? The autocratic way? Which by admision of the book is riddle with nepotism. What happens when one defy that? Do other members attack the offender pack? Do they kill them? Are they allowed to leave? How they keep power if anyone can come and go from the protectorate at their whim? Is there a way to challenge leadership? Which one? What happens if by enforcing a descision of the leader a pack kills a werewolf who refutes a ruling from the protectorate leaders and thus breaking the oath? What happens if a breach in the oath happens and the Alpha pack rules one thing but the packmates of the accussed refute that ruling? How the other packs react? How are disputes solve? Via challenge? Who issue the challenge? The leader? Even though there might be a bias whether from auspice, tribe or personal?

              This are the questions (and many more) that should be aswered and have been answered in other lines both NWoD or OWoD that a barebones section (not even chapter) in the pack didnt. Is not that i am ignoring 2E so much as 1E hammer the packs as islands over and over and over with protectorates being presented as fools dream destined to fall appart. And 2E comes and says "no it different" and i ask how with the game answering "it different because......it is" with little to no mind paid to the details.


              Originally posted by nofather View Post
              How the Werewolf setting works is depicted well before character creation. I'll grant that the mechanics are after it, but that's something that can be surmised by reading the introduction or looking at the table of contents. What kind of game the Storyteller is running is something that needs to be talked about between the Storyteller and the players, it's not something that can be decided by the book. The book does, however, assume you're using the standard approach to storytelling.
              No necesarily. Other games have a "by the book" social structure that can be filled out by the book. "here is the hierarch/prince/king, here is the Herald/herald/herald, here is the Sheriff/Constable/dont remember the mage one"

              Originally posted by xiongrey View Post
              Again, though, if your players aren't reading the books it doesn't matter if they're overcomplicated or under.
              Thats not true, i have taught Masquerade to a lot of players who dont read the book and its easy and done under a 15 minutes. In the case of masquerade the game is incredible simple same steps of typical chargen (Attributes + skills) + Nature/Demeanor + The 3 stats (courage, etc) + clan with 3 powers. And a simple power structure "Prince on top, anyone older that you is your superior, done"

              Players only have to worry about their 3 powers which are tied to clan so not many options there.

              Forsaken have typical chargen + Bone/Blood + Touchstones + Totem + Wolf blooded NPCs/Human NPCs + Triggers + Auspice + Tribe + Renown + Gift which are affected by your renown so is lot more back and forth than others and are list after list that you can take regardless of auspice/tribe. Then a player have to keep in mind the 5 forms and their special power, the Renown abilities and the hunter aspect. Is pretty desingenous to say that not reading the book is the same for all games. That without getting into the overcomplicated terminology and the spirit world.
              Last edited by LokiRavenSpeak; 07-26-2017, 08:20 PM.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by LokiRavenSpeak View Post
                There is a difference between wanting certain territories and just start grabbing territories lefts and right. Werewolf treats a lot of things as territories/properties and fight each other for it. Be it location or wolfblooded. Is not balehound behavior to kick a pack from a territorie because either you want a more confortable territory or just shove them aside because you want a piece of it and it doesnt require dire circunstance either.

                Might makes right is how it goes.
                Going by the setting, as depicted, and the books, you are describing Bale Hounds and the Pure. Yes, it is Bale Hound behavior to just take what you want. And Pure behavior to justify it as 'the strong deserve it.' There's a whole tenet of the Oath of the Moon about it. 'The low honor the high; the high respect the low.'

                Originally posted by Blasphemies, the Bale Hounds of Mammon
                'At the core, the true notion of greed is to grasp more than one needs to survive. All beings of substance and Shadow are selfish to some degree, and almost every being within the two worlds desires more than the bare minimum they require to survive. Every being has the potential for greed. Mammon’s Bale Hounds capitalize on that fact with great ease, and the desire for more than one needs soon becomes a hunt flavored with spite in the hope of denying others part of the share.'
                Like I said, it's fine if you want this to be your setting, but it's not the setting depicted in the books.

                The pack suffers from the same problem the Rage suffer when describing a social structure. Its all broad strokes and little details and one can put anything on broad stroke and could certantly fly, is in the detail in which things break or stand. On the example of protectorate i could add "Or sometimes the leader pack is choosen by lotery" which without details on how that process work is as much use at those other examples.
                Because there's dozens of ways it could work, even if you decided it was done by lottery.

                This is the example the books provides that is closest to what we are talking about, one without an inminent threat. And its as much useful as my lotery option (less so at least mine tells you everything is decided by lotery). We got why they form and remain but never got the how they work. So they minimize disputes between packs (which i would point out "only happened in dire circuntances" must be a Bale Hound protectorate) but how? The autocratic way? Which by admision of the book is riddle with nepotism. What happens when one defy that? Do other members attack the offender pack? Do they kill them? Are they allowed to leave? How they keep power if anyone can come and go from the protectorate at their whim? Is there a way to challenge leadership? Which one? What happens if by enforcing a descision of the leader a pack kills a werewolf who refutes a ruling from the protectorate leaders and thus breaking the oath? What happens if a breach in the oath happens and the Alpha pack rules one thing but the packmates of the accussed refute that ruling? How the other packs react? How are disputes solve? Via challenge? Who issue the challenge? The leader? Even though there might be a bias whether from auspice, tribe or personal?
                Yes. Any and all of these things can happen. It even says so. That's a story.

                No necesarily. Other games have a "by the book" social structure that can be filled out by the book. "here is the hierarch/prince/king, here is the Herald/herald/herald, here is the Sheriff/Constable/dont remember the mage one"
                Because vampire's standard setting is the domain, ruled by the Prince. A mage's standard setting is a consilium, ruled by a Hierarch. The werewolf's standard setting is their territory, where the decisions are made by the individual pack. It makes this clear as well in the first half of the Pack and the core book.

                Is pretty desingenous to say that not reading the book is the same for all games.
                I didn't say that. You've complained, repeatedly, about the content of the books. I pointed out that if your players aren't reading the books, it doesn't matter what the content is.

                Still! You can just as easily do the same thing with Masquerade with werewolves. Blood/Bone is just Nature/Demeanor. Totem doesn't have a correlation, but unless your players are all playing shovelheads, they have sires and that's a fair equivalent. Wolf-Blooded are ghouls, humans are herd. You don't have to have them if you don't want. Triggers? Do you not tell vampire players about Rotschreck and Frenzy? Auspice is the same as clan, tribe the same as sect. Renown as the Virtues. The major impact Renown has on Gifts is either letting you have it or giving you a dicepool. The different forms are printed there on the character sheet in as easy a way to understand as possible, along with their special powers.

                That said, if you or your players are having trouble memorizing the rules and setting from how you explain it to them, the solution is simple, just hand them the book and let them have a read.

                But you've made your point, I get it now.
                Last edited by nofather; 07-26-2017, 09:03 PM.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by xiongrey View Post
                  nofather , Thanks for the heads up on the Anthology I'll have to take that off the shelf and read it alongside my reread of Harry Potter ^.^. Which stories would you suggest I read for that purpose?
                  They're all pretty good and show werewolf world from different angles but I'd advise these to be read primarily.

                  Legacy is good for showing how a pack works, especially with extended membership.
                  Like God is an eerie story that depicts the weirdness of the spirit world more than werewolf relationships. It's a good one, but more about the spirit world than being a werewolf.
                  Last Rites gets into the mysticism of a werewolf and spirit bond, including memories of initiation into a tribe and the impact it might have on you.
                  Desert Dreaming Hunt depicts a for the most part lone wolf undergoing a hunt, well done.
                  The Worst Kind of Enemy shows the dangers of not knowing your territory and what happens to some ghost wolves, or wolves who fall through the cracks.

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