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[2E] Solution to always 'I go into Hard Rage' tactics

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  • [2E] Solution to always 'I go into Hard Rage' tactics

    I run 2E Werewolf now couple of session and I see our Rahu player goes to force Hard Rage on himself by each combat. And as one pack member goes for Basu-Im, rest need to follow by him. How would you try to stir player from using always this 'self-induced' Hard Rage? I asked him on last session to roll for Breaking Point toward Spirit ( with -3 penalty ) but I do not assume he will stop using this 'ultimate solution to all problems'. He points that Rahu Gifts best works in Hard Rage, exactly.

    It's a kind of problem, as two other players in pack must - by the rules of Hard Rage - to join him, ending any other confrontation with other major NPCs on shredding any of them by Uratha PCs in Rage, always and always. So one players decide on actions of pack, just because his character is build to always fight.
    Last edited by wyrdhamster; 09-02-2017, 12:43 PM.


    My stuff for Scion 2E, CoD Contagion, Dark Eras, VtR 2E, WtF 2E, MtAw 2E & BtP
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  • #2
    Make them face something that you cannot shred, or better yet, MUST not shred. Maybe a spirit that they need to convince to do something, but they cannot let it come to harm since it is integral to the balance? Have them meet spirits they need something from, and whom they need to prove themselves to e.g. via combat, but must not lose control, because a dead teacher is a bad teacher.
    Otherwise, keep the breaking rolls coming, then let him eat the consequences of being very spirit-y.
    Alternatively, make him face someone who, like Elodoth, can stop Rage. That would be a bit hamfisted, unless you build up to that. Possible twist: this antagonist prevents packmates from entering Basu-Im, locks the Rahu in Basu-Im, and disappears, so that they have to face their own packmate who tries to kill them as best as he can.
    I assume a lot of Rage spirits love being near him - this causes trouble by itself. Use that. Make entering Kuruth easier, and leaving it harder. Make the length of his Basu-Im longer (thanks to the rage spirits maybe?). Make him enter Basu-Im unvoluntarily, essentially skiping Soft Rage. Show him he is spiralling towards absolute loss of control.
    Create a situation were being in Hard Rage is obviously bad (e.g. lots of innocents around) and if he still uses it, make him deal with the fall-out, or see to it that Hard Rage is simply not an answer to the problem at hand (play up the drawbacks, basically).
    Willfully entering Kuruth any time there is a fight is not smart. Kuruth is a complete loss of control. Every time the character enters Basu-Im, he gives away agency. If the situation changes, he cannot adapt to it.

    He needs to understand
    Originally posted by Page 292
    Death Rage is a brutal, terrible thing, and thus it can wipe away more than just Health and antagonists.
    Consider using the Putting it on the Line rules from page 292.


    From a discussion with ArchonAres : When in Basu-Im, ask the players: what do you want most? Now have them go get it in the most violent, over-the-top brutal way possible. At first this will be "kill that guy!" but that will not take long. Now what? Now you have a bunch of marauding Garou form Uratha trying to get a sandwich for their Alpha by slaughtering anything in their way and eating it.
    Have your players make a list of their character's basic desires (After fighting? My Rahu likes rock concerts!) to abuse for this. Kill the guy, crash a rock concert in the most Werewolf-way possible. End this fight, crash a bar. End this fight, visit your family. Plenty of horror you can use here, imo.
    Last edited by Wormwood; 09-02-2017, 07:27 AM.

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    • #3
      Have you tried just asking him to stop? If something in the game isn't fun, always try talking to your players first.

      Other than that, I would like to note that the communal "rage whirlpool" has a range limit - it only affects pack members within 10 yards. The others can just clear out and let him deal with his own problems if they want to.

      You can also highlight the practical consequences. You can only go on so many rampages before police, hunters and other hostile forces start to take notice. If the pack is constantly and intentionally entering Death Rage, the local spirits aren't going to trust them, and neither will the local Uratha. If they do it in their own territory, their allies and pack mates are at serious risk. It's also likely to create and attract spirits of violence, destruction, fear and other nasty sorts. And if they react to every confrontation with murder, people are just going to stop confronting them. Once it becomes apparent that neither reasonable discussion nor a direct assault works, their enemies are going to pivot from "honorable challenge" to "silver slug to the neck while you sleep."

      Or throw problems at them that they can't instantly solve through murder. Those major NPCs have allies, right? Have them retaliate by attacking infrastructure, killing pack mates, messing up the Shadow in the pack's territory. Have the enemy trick and deceive rather than assault. Put them in a situation where entering Death Rage would be seriously bad, like having an enemy kidnap a valued ally so the pack has to mount a rescue mission. Can't Death Rage when you're trying to rescue someone or they'll die.

      Or give them an enemy they can't just outstat. A huge spirit that'll mop the floor with them if they try. Enemy werewolves that'll rage right back and negate them. A Host that scatters if they try to defeat it through brute force. A shadowy antagonist who communicates through lackeys and video feeds rather than face them directly. The middle manager of an evil corporation whose death means nothing in the grand scheme. Plenty of ways to engineer a scenario where hulking out and murdering everything within sight just doesn't work.
      Last edited by Terrorforge; 09-02-2017, 07:42 AM.

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      • #4
        Hard Rage also only lasts for so long- afterwards, you conk out. That's dangerous. Have some of the wolves enemies take advantage of the knowledge that he does this every time. Or if you have an Elodoth handy (pc or otherwise) they could assist in stopping the rage.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Wormwood View Post
          Make them face something that you cannot shred, or better yet, MUST not shred. Maybe a spirit that they need to convince to do something, but they cannot let it come to harm since it is integral to the balance? Have them meet spirits they need something from, and whom they need to prove themselves to e.g. via combat, but must not lose control, because a dead teacher is a bad teacher.
          They literally earn their Totem in 2017 timeline by killing it with Hard Rage as they could not normally. And THEN they resurected him with Essence sacrficies - each killed spirit goes to hibernaton after 'killing' and just need his Rank number of Essence to return.

          Originally posted by Wormwood View Post
          Otherwise, keep the breaking rolls coming, then let him eat the consequences of being very spirit-y.
          Okay, Harmony rolls to Spirit sounds as good idea - only it gives Beat to character for 'winning' the system. Also, is not Spirit Breaking Point with -3 is not too much for inducing Hard Rage in himself? It's a level of eating human or wolf meat, you know... Still, player on last session hit the first Ban area on Harmony, maybe forcing going to Spirit side with much and much repercussions of Harmony will make him rethink actions all around.

          Originally posted by Wormwood View Post
          Alternatively, make him face someone who, like Elodoth, can stop Rage. That would be a bit hamfisted, unless you build up to that. Possible twist: this antagonist prevents packmates from entering Basu-Im, locks the Rahu in Basu-Im, and disappears, so that they have to face their own packmate who tries to kill them as best as he can.
          Will remember this to introduce later in the chronicle, but not forcing just from start.

          Originally posted by Wormwood View Post
          I assume a lot of Rage spirits love being near him - this causes trouble by itself. Use that. Make entering Kuruth easier, and leaving it harder. Make the length of his Basu-Im longer (thanks to the rage spirits maybe?). Make him enter Basu-Im unvoluntarily, essentially skiping Soft Rage. Show him he is spiralling towards absolute loss of control.
          Good point - especially as chronicle is about Bale Hounds and their Maeljinn legions, tempting one of PCs for being agent of Rage is even on narratively level good for the story. Will look to enforce a small changes in number of Rage turns.

          Character in Viking Age have Blood Berserker, so going with Rage/Wrath spirit following him could be very good idea.

          Originally posted by Wormwood View Post
          Create a situation were being in Hard Rage is obviously bad (e.g. lots of innocents around) and if he still uses it, make him deal with the fall-out, or see to it that Hard Rage is simply not an answer to the problem at hand (play up the drawbacks, basically).
          I suppose open battle is bad situation to go whole Basu-Im, yes?

          Originally posted by Wormwood View Post
          From a discussion with ArchonAres : When in Basu-Im, ask the players: what do you want most? Now have them go get it in the most violent, over-the-top brutal way possible. At first this will be "kill that guy!" but that will not take long. Now what? Now you have a bunch of marauding Garou form Uratha trying to get a sandwich for their Alpha by slaughtering anything in their way and eating it.
          Have your players make a list of their character's basic desires (After fighting? My Rahu likes rock concerts!) to abuse for this. Kill the guy, crash a rock concert in the most Werewolf-way possible. End this fight, crash a bar. End this fight, visit your family. Plenty of horror you can use here, imo.
          Will think about this one...
          Last edited by wyrdhamster; 09-02-2017, 01:06 PM.


          My stuff for Scion 2E, CoD Contagion, Dark Eras, VtR 2E, WtF 2E, MtAw 2E & BtP
          LGBT+ in CoD games

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Terrorforge View Post
            You can also highlight the practical consequences. You can only go on so many rampages before police, hunters and other hostile forces start to take notice. If the pack is constantly and intentionally entering Death Rage, the local spirits aren't going to trust them, and neither will the local Uratha. If they do it in their own territory, their allies and pack mates are at serious risk. It's also likely to create and attract spirits of violence, destruction, fear and other nasty sorts. And if they react to every confrontation with murder, people are just going to stop confronting them. Once it becomes apparent that neither reasonable discussion nor a direct assault works, their enemies are going to pivot from "honorable challenge" to "silver slug to the neck while you sleep."

            Or throw problems at them that they can't instantly solve through murder. Those major NPCs have allies, right? Have them retaliate by attacking infrastructure, killing pack mates, messing up the Shadow in the pack's territory. Have the enemy trick and deceive rather than assault. Put them in a situation where entering Death Rage would be seriously bad, like having an enemy kidnap a valued ally so the pack has to mount a rescue mission. Can't Death Rage when you're trying to rescue someone or they'll die.

            Or give them an enemy they can't just outstat. A huge spirit that'll mop the floor with them if they try. Enemy werewolves that'll rage right back and negate them. A Host that scatters if they try to defeat it through brute force. A shadowy antagonist who communicates through lackeys and video feeds rather than face them directly. The middle manager of an evil corporation whose death means nothing in the grand scheme. Plenty of ways to engineer a scenario where hulking out and murdering everything within sight just doesn't work.
            Good ideas...

            For modern world game. In Viking Age it really goes for 'I kill them all', as PCs are going for raiding in their crew boat to exotic locations, they do not need to concern with local ecology or NPCs reactions in nearby after their actions.


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            • #7
              Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post

              Good ideas...

              For modern world game. In Viking Age it really goes for 'I kill them all', as PCs are going for raiding in their crew boat to exotic locations, they do not need to concern with local ecology or NPCs reactions in nearby after their actions.
              Do they have human or wolf-blooded crew members? Those can still be put at risk in the ways I mentioned. So can the boat itself. Death Rage could easily lead to destroying it, and clever enemies will deliberately provoke a fight on their ship for this reason - or just damage it themselves.

              Even in a viking age raid-centric game, it's possible to have consequences, especially if your enemies are supernatural beings. They might figure out where you're going and send word to their associates. They might have a curse put on you. They might even personally follow you and mess with you out of spite; let's see a bunch of vikings Rage or sail their way out of a conflict with a vengeful Sea-Claimed or aquatic Host.

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              • #8
                All it would need is one flying opponent to take wing when the Kuruth happens, let them attack whatever, maybe even lure them into nearby settlements, then just attack them when they pass out in human forms.

                And of course since they're surrounded by rage spirits they would be making themselves open to being urged or Claimed, as would potentially anyone around them like their extended pack.

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                • #9
                  This feels like it should be a relatively self-correcting problem? Werewolves in hard rage tend to end up going on murderous, uncontrolled rampages, after all, as the crux of the problem is that you don't really have very much control over what's happening - especially once any immediate *actual* enemies are out of the picture.


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                  • #10
                    I think the "Enemies just stay out of harm's way" is something you can more than easily make use of, as has been noted by several people here already. The flying enemy luring them into a settlement (preferably ones with allies in it) and just wait it out is my favourite.

                    I really like the boat-idea! Wasn't aware this is a viking setting, but even then I wouldn't have thought of that! It is kinda hard to move around, even for Werewolf Vikings, if their main means of transport is unusable. Their craftsmen won't be happy, it will take a lot of time. IF they have capable enough craftsmen/Material around. Trapped on an Island is not fun.

                    Regarding the "bringing back spirits" - the spirit is still out of commission for a bit. That is dangerous for a Spirit.

                    And yeah, Basu-Im is likely to attract a whole bunch of unlikeable spirits, not just Rage. Death, Violence, Blood, Hate, Fear : they create BREEDING GROUNDS for these things if that is their prefered method of dealing with stuff. Those things will follow them and settle anywhere they are. They are basically polluting the hisil with their actions - "this is not our territory" is not an excuse here and this whole thing kinda against the werewolf spirit? I mean, keeping your territory clean is a big thing. Keeping the hisil clean is a big thing. Doing neither... is going to raise some eyebrows. Anywho, this is bound to have horrible consequences. Make them go back to one place they went this route, and have it be full of Claimed and Urged. Make this a dangerous fight even in Basu-Im. Make this a fight where going Basu-Im makes the Spirits go stronger as they feed off the Rage. Hell, if there is a notable, useful, good NPC, have him die here! Make them look at this shithole, and let them realize "We did this. This is our fault".
                    Make other Werewolfs confront them for basically shitting in front of their garden. Make those other werewolves obviously good guys - not out for a fight, but out to open their eyes for their responsibilities. If that takes a beating, so be it.

                    In short: it's not a bug, it's a feature! Use this tendency to abuse a mechanic (which disencourages abuse already so so much!) to tell an intriguing story about consequences.

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                    • #11
                      As nofather mentioned earlier, the main book implies that they collapse from exhaustion after a bout of Basu-Ilm. This is a perfect time to throw in one more antagonist. Imagine the whole pack lying on the floor, and then announcing that a curious spirit decided to materialize to see what was going on, or a bunch of humans came to investigate, or one of the hosts spiders or rats happen to be in the area and waited for their rage to end so that they can come for an easy meal.

                      Imagine the horror of knowing that you are in a powerless state and one of your greatest enemies is coming closer. That might encourage them to stop abusing that tactic.

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