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How would you make/rank this Fetish?

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  • LokiRavenSpeak
    started a topic How would you make/rank this Fetish?

    How would you make/rank this Fetish?

    Hello everyone. So one of my players, a Rahu Blood talon is facing the "problem" that killing pure is break of Harmony but beating them up and sending them home (even with a binding oath) is a temporal solution that doesn't really fix the "problem".

    So he came up with this idea for a fetish, a chain to immobilize a Pure for capture and imprisonment of Uratha. After pointing how "Jails for Pure" was a not doable he decided he needed the chain to capture a pure and then "reform him/her".


    After giving him a gm nudge of "this idea is gonna end badly" that he ignore it, he is 100% on board on this idea.

    So how go along with this? A chain that immobilizes the pure seems like a game changer but i am of the belief that rank 5 fetish (because of the fact you need to remove a rank 5 spirit from the political landscape of the shadow, a thus one is gonna send the shadow into turmoil and gain them many enemies) should not be something the PC acquired unless is "End of the campaign stuff" and even less for something that is gonna backfire as this plan is gonna be. So i know is gonna have to fit a rank 1 to 4.

    The fetish section on the 2E Core is anemic at best but even i doubt any more complete version would be able to cover this particular idea. So far i know it needs to be silver to counter (by the -1 for touching silver and as secondary effect) escape gifts.

    So i though on 2 options, the moral option and the harmony breaking one.

    The moral option is getting making the fetish from a Rank 4 spirit of a mountain which would use its influence (unmovable) to create its influence and immobilize the pure.

    The harmony breaking option is a rank 2 spirit of pain that use its influence to strengthen the pain of the silver chain and immobilize them via overwhelming them with it. And thus violating the oath against torturing prey.


    Thoughts? Ideas? Recommendations or things to look out for?
    Last edited by LokiRavenSpeak; 09-03-2017, 11:08 PM.

  • nofather
    replied
    Yeah we had things like Fire and Water which had a fire spirit, a water spirit and an Elunim. Six dots, a moon klaive.

    It seems fetish rules have changed, though. There doesn't seem to be any mention of multiple spirits in a single fetish. But it's possible extended rules will be added later in publication.

    Of course one should always feel free to make exceptions to such rules if the story fits it.
    Last edited by nofather; 09-04-2017, 03:05 PM.

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  • LokiRavenSpeak
    replied
    Originally posted by Elfive View Post
    That's from Apocalypse, right? I know multiple spirits being bound into a fetish is a thing there.
    It was a thing in Forsaken too but it was weird, you could put 2 spirits into the same fetish but if one of those spirits was the original spirit of the object (say, i am making a staff fetish so i put the staff spirit and another one) then both get mad (crazy, no angry) and the fetish is wonky.

    I dont see anything wrong with going back to the "multiple spirits for the same fetish" only have to work out how that would work. 1 ritual for both or separate rituals? I am leaning on the latter with the idea i got from Seventh Seals of "building up to the fetish you want"
    Last edited by LokiRavenSpeak; 09-04-2017, 04:43 PM.

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  • Malus
    replied
    Originally posted by Elfive View Post
    My first thought was to suggest that you could go with the sum of ranks rather than one big spirit, but that might make powerful fetishes a little too easy to make.

    Maybe you could have two spirits of a given rank count as the one above? Capped at 5, obviously.
    The notion was that convincing different spirits, of different ranks to inhabit one was particularly difficult.

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  • Elfive
    replied
    My first thought was to suggest that you could go with the sum of ranks rather than one big spirit, but that might make powerful fetishes a little too easy to make.

    Maybe you could have two spirits of a given rank count as the one above? Capped at 5, obviously.

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  • Malus
    replied
    Originally posted by Elfive View Post
    That's from Apocalypse, right? I know multiple spirits being bound into a fetish is a thing there.
    So was it in 1e. You won't see me trying to pick an incarnae into a compact container any time soon.

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  • Elfive
    replied
    That's from Apocalypse, right? I know multiple spirits being bound into a fetish is a thing there.

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  • Bunyip
    replied
    Originally posted by Malus View Post
    Contrary to popular opinion, rank 5 fetishes don't require a rank 5 spirit. Those are already too big to be stored into a fetish, but usually, it requires more than one spirit being bond into the fetish.
    Page 146 disagrees with you.

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  • Malus
    replied
    Contrary to popular opinion, rank 5 fetishes don't require a rank 5 spirit. Those are already too big to be stored into a fetish, but usually, it requires more than one spirit being bond into the fetish.

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  • nofather
    replied
    Originally posted by LokiRavenSpeak View Post
    Could work, they dont have a rural area in their territory but i could see it to adapt the Parlor games adventure. Though he doesnt seem oddly invested (he did IC investigation, IC exchanging favors with tribemates) on making the fetish, hope he can change his mind without feeling railroaded.
    In our first game one of the pack had taken over a butcher shop and had a meat locker. It was a wound, full of draining spirits of pain, but there might be similar, not-as-nasty places in an urban area. All else fails you might be able to make a deal with the spirit of a prison.

    While the weight is a good analogy for Harmony, there is also that society (depending on the DM) will judge you more harshly or less so by how fat/thin you become on one side (toward flesh for violating the oath)
    That's a good point, thanks.

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  • LokiRavenSpeak
    replied
    Originally posted by nofather View Post
    Rather than a fetish, you might try to find a place. Providing there's no locus, a werewolf could effectively be locked in a place in the Hisil. Escape Gifts might be a problem, but if you went to an actual mountain, instead of a mountain fetish, you could find some Place That Isn't that works as a near-inescapable prison. Apparently there's a lodge that keeps mages in some place like that, and they are obviously notoriously hard to keep pinned down.
    Could work, they dont have a rural area in their territory but i could see it to adapt the Parlor games adventure. Though he doesnt seem oddly invested (he did IC investigation, IC exchanging favors with tribemates) on making the fetish, hope he can change his mind without feeling railroaded.

    Originally posted by nofather View Post
    As for the Oath, it is 'The People do not Murder the People,' and it says, 'Some Pure seem to believe that killing Forsaken is taboo, although torture doesn't violate the law.' Granted it could be a Pure view. It might be more of a break of low honoring the high or high respecting the low.
    Yeah i just edited my previous post with that one.

    Originally posted by nofather View Post
    I'm sorry for misunderstanding you on the Harmony/Morality front. What do you think of the weight analogy? Fitting or no?
    No worries, its a good analogy for harmony itself. However there also the issue of the Oath and how it gets treated. Each game it gonna treat the oath as more or less sacred of course and the social aspect of the pack is gonna be more or less relevant depending on the game (Ranging from all packs are islands to, i dont know how a Septs-like-protectorate would look like).

    While the weight is a good analogy for Harmony, there is also that society (depending on the DM) will judge you more harshly or less so by how fat/thin you become on one side (toward flesh for violating the oath)
    Last edited by LokiRavenSpeak; 09-03-2017, 11:57 PM.

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  • nofather
    replied
    Rather than a fetish, you might try to find a place. Providing there's no locus, a werewolf could effectively be locked in a place in the Hisil. Escape Gifts might be a problem, but if you went to an actual mountain, instead of a mountain fetish, you could find some Place That Isn't that works as a near-inescapable prison. Apparently there's a lodge that keeps mages in some place like that, and they are obviously notoriously hard to keep pinned down.

    As for the Oath, it is 'The People do not Murder the People,' and it says, 'Some Pure seem to believe that killing Forsaken is taboo, although torture doesn't violate the law.' Granted it could be a Pure view. It might be more of a break of low honoring the high or high respecting the low.

    I'm sorry for misunderstanding you on the Harmony/Morality front. What do you think of the weight analogy? Fitting or no?

    Leave a comment:


  • LokiRavenSpeak
    replied

    Originally posted by nofather View Post
    It could just be a fetish that already exists. The Forsaken and the Pure have been around for thousands of years, I doubt this would be the first time someone thought of that. Of course you would still need more than one unless there was just a single Pure you were after. Redemption the Pure comes up a lot in the books. Redeeming them, at least, not crippling them and keeping them still because that's some sort of better option.
    Yeah just one chain for 1 Uratha, he plans to ambush them one by one. I think that what he is planning is more or less what the pure usually do, torture, brainwashing, etc etc. I mean he doesn't have any pure in mind and his character is neither a intelligent person nor a psychologist of any kind so i am guessing its a "punch them until they switch sides kind of deal"

    Originally posted by nofather View Post
    Do you think it would be moral to effectively paralyze someone? Even if you did, you're going to be driving the werewolf insane as they're unable to perform the sacred hunt and start suffering from Essence loss, in addition to making them vulnerable to spirits, hosts, and other enemies.

    Torture is actually not part of the Oath, the book explicitly says this.
    Well is more moral than paralyzing by mind-numbing pain. And doesn't "respect your prey" cover torture? If it doesn't, certainly I consider that a break in the oath not on the "People dont kill the people" tenet but on the "Respect your prey" tenet.

    So i word searched "torture" on my PDF of the book so the only passage that mentions it, its under the "The people do not murder the people"

    Originally posted by WTF Core pg 69;
    Some Pure seem to believe that killing Forsaken is taboo, although torture doesn’t violate the law.
    As this part talks about the Pure and their taboo against killing the people, i thinks is more referring to the Urafah law (the Pure version of the oath of the moon) no that the Oath of the moon itself allows for torture.

    Originally posted by nofather View Post
    I believe you're conflating Harmony with Morality. Harmony is not Morality. You can take a Harmony break and be fine, even go back an hour later. You don't even suffer a Condition for it unless it gets too low. I've been thinking about analogies because you and some others have expressed this problem before and seem to have trouble with the spirit-aspect of the werewolf. So perhaps look at Harmony as a kind of caloric balance. Some things will make you gain weight. Some things will make you lose weight. There is a healthy ideal, but you are not good or evil for going up and down and changes are common.
    Oh i am not confusing both thats what i said he is facing the "problem" of killing the pure. But the player in question doesnt wanna have the social stigma (which is very little in my games) for killing the pure and harmony loss.
    Last edited by LokiRavenSpeak; 09-03-2017, 11:48 PM.

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  • nofather
    replied
    Originally posted by LokiRavenSpeak View Post
    i am of the belief that rank 5 fetish (because of the fact you need to remove a rank 5 spirit from the political landscape of the shadow, a thus one is gonna send the shadow into turmoil and gain them many enemies) should not be something the PC acquired unless is "End of the campaign stuff" and even less for something that is gonna backfire as this plan is gonna be. So i know is gonna have to fit a rank 1 to 4.
    It could just be a fetish that already exists. The Forsaken and the Pure have been around for thousands of years, I doubt this would be the first time someone thought of that. Of course you would still need more than one unless there was just a single Pure you were after. Redemption the Pure comes up a lot in the books. Redeeming them, at least, not crippling them and keeping them still because that's some sort of better option.

    The moral option is getting making the fetish from a Rank 4 spirit of a mountain which would use its influence (unmovable) to create its influence and immobilize the pure.
    Do you think it would be moral to effectively paralyze someone? Even if you did, you're going to be driving the werewolf insane as they're unable to perform the sacred hunt and start suffering from Essence loss, in addition to making them vulnerable to spirits, hosts, and other enemies.

    The harmony breaking option is a rank 2 spirit of pain that use its influence to strengthen the pain of the silver chain and immobilize them via overwhelming them with it. And thus violating the oath against torturing prey.
    Torture is actually not part of the Oath, the book explicitly says this.

    Thoughts? Ideas? Recommendations or things to look out for?
    I believe you're conflating Harmony with Morality. Harmony is not Morality. You can take a Harmony break and be fine, even go back an hour later. You don't even suffer a Condition for it unless it gets too low. I've been thinking about analogies because you and some others have expressed this problem before and seem to have trouble with the spirit-aspect of the werewolf. So perhaps look at Harmony as a kind of caloric balance. Some things will make you gain weight. Some things will make you lose weight. There is a healthy ideal, but you are not good or evil for going up and down and changes are common.
    Last edited by nofather; 09-03-2017, 11:27 PM.

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