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[2E] Should vampire blood drinking be Harmony Breaking Point?

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  • [2E] Should vampire blood drinking be Harmony Breaking Point?

    I run crossover chronicles with Vampire: the Requiem material. I want to use 'werewolves drinking vampires blood' trope. I even made quick fan rules for benefits that werewolf can take by using blood of Kindred. Here are those:

    Werewolves - They get in to Death Rage. In 2E I would probably start with Wasu-Im and give Aggravated healing for wolves ( 1 Vitea for 1 Aggrav, can exchange 1 point per 1 turn only ), to make things tempting. Burning all Vitea on regeneration would end Wasu-Im - IF Uratha would not go over Basu-Im in meantime.
    Now the core question of this topic - Would vamps blood drinking be Harmony Breaking Point for Uratha? If yes, would it be to Flesh or Spirit? On what level - no penalty, -2 or -3 to roll?


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  • #2
    Most 'eating the essence of others' stuff tends to push you towards Spirit. Considering Vitae is effectively distilled Life Essence it's probably a good way to go. I'd probably round it to -2 penalty.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by nofather View Post
      Most 'eating the essence of others' stuff tends to push you towards Spirit. Considering Vitae is effectively distilled Life Essence it's probably a good way to go. I'd probably round it to -2 penalty.
      I'd say that, just from a thematic standpoint of you-are-what-you-eat, consuming the physical substance of a frenzy-prone body-resetting nocturnal habit-forming monster whose development of folkloric weaknesses serves to oppose the process by which they gradually lose their ties to active unlife is a better fit for unpenalized breaking points towards Flesh, which will make the werewolf less able to change forms, more prone to bouts of extended fury, more likely to eat people, and more qualified for Merits that correspond to a human mindset.

      Breaking towards Spirit encourages spending more time in the physical world to rebalance and brings the spiritual consequences of having a regnant to the foreground, but unless the aim is to specifically contrast werewolves against the vampires who feed them I can't say multiple bans and uncontrolled shapeshifting strikes me as a natural endpoint to that relationship if left unmanaged.

      All in all it's going to depend on what the goal of making Vitae consumption a breaking point is in the first place.


      Resident Sanguinary Analyst
      Currently Consuming: Changeling: the Lost 1e

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      • #4
        As vampires are essentially parasites locked in stasis who survive on consuming distilling living Essence via blood, I’d say consuming their blood is both flesh and spirit and should be unbalancing regardless of whatever other benefits it delivers. Give a breaking point towards whichever end the werewolf is unbalanced towards, or a random direction if she happens to be at Harmony 5. I’d base the penalty on how many blood point equivalents she drank - perhaps divided by 2 or 3 (round up), so 1-3 = -1, 4-6 = -2 etc.

        That’s just my personal opinion off the top of my head, if I introduced vampire blood drinking into a game.


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        • #5
          Originally posted by Satchel View Post
          I'd say that, just from a thematic standpoint of you-are-what-you-eat, consuming the physical substance of a frenzy-prone body-resetting nocturnal habit-forming monster whose development of folkloric weaknesses serves to oppose the process by which they gradually lose their ties to active unlife is a better fit for unpenalized breaking points towards Flesh, which will make the werewolf less able to change forms, more prone to bouts of extended fury, more likely to eat people, and more qualified for Merits that correspond to a human mindset.
          You yourself pointing that vampires have very common themes with spirits - they have Banes, weaknesses ( Bans-like ), and that Vitea is much more 'spiritual force', than proper blood that it's caries. Strix are stealing breath for Vitea, isn't it?


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          • #6
            Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
            You yourself pointing that vampires have very common themes with spirits - they have Banes, weaknesses ( Bans-like ),
            Right, but the elements of that that are closer to werewolves amount to the things that get worse at either end of the Harmony scale and the elements that are more particular and peculiar arise as part of the process of making it harder to lose Humanity and intensify the more ingrained vampiric banes. Unless your goal is to make drinking vampire blood gradually render werewolves inaccessible to the vampires who might feed them, it makes more sense for Vitae to pull them toward the Flesh.

            and that Vitea is much more 'spiritual force', than proper blood that it's caries. Strix are stealing breath for Vitea, isn't it?
            Strix Vitae notably can't actually be used for anything external to the Strix itself — it can't sustain ghouls or perform Crúac or form blood bonds or etc — and the vampiric powers resonant with werewolf notions of territory and tracking are bound up in getting blood all over the place. The Curse may take many forms, but Kindred Vitae is a specific (if broad) manifestation of that phenomenon.


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            Currently Consuming: Changeling: the Lost 1e

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Satchel View Post
              Right, but the elements of that that are closer to werewolves amount to the things that get worse at either end of the Harmony scale and the elements that are more particular and peculiar arise as part of the process of making it harder to lose Humanity and intensify the more ingrained vampiric banes. Unless your goal is to make drinking vampire blood gradually render werewolves inaccessible to the vampires who might feed them, it makes more sense for Vitae to pull them toward the Flesh.
              So you post to make vampire blood drinking Breaking Point toward Flesh ONLY to make more anchored in the Flesh world, so they could drink more vampiric blood?

              Originally posted by Satchel View Post
              Strix Vitae notably can't actually be used for anything external to the Strix itself — it can't sustain ghouls or perform Crúac or form blood bonds or etc — and the vampiric powers resonant with werewolf notions of territory and tracking are bound up in getting blood all over the place. The Curse may take many forms, but Kindred Vitae is a specific (if broad) manifestation of that phenomenon.
              Are not werewolf nations of Territory and Tracking left overs from Urfarah, i.e. Lord Spirit of Hunt?


              My stuff for Scion 2E, Dark Eras, VtR 2E, WtF 2E, MtAw 2E & BtP
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              • #8
                Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
                So you post to make vampire blood drinking Breaking Point toward Flesh ONLY to make more anchored in the Flesh world, so they could drink more vampiric blood?
                That would be my rationale if the goal was to make "drink more vampire blood" a thing for werewolf characters to be incentivized to do as an easy slide to one end of the scale rather than something they'd have to constantly rebalance to keep up — remember that breaking toward Spirit makes it easier to break toward Spirit again and harder to Reach into the Flesh, where most Kindred tend to stick around.

                It's also worth remembering that vampires' thematic niche is a lot narrower than the potential breadth of spiritual expression that the Shadow encompasses — unless you want to treat vampires as less disastrous forms of idigam and apply a common set of bans to any low-Harmony thrall of a given vampire regnant, it makes more sense to skew them towards the end of the scale whose most variable drawback is the Death Rage trigger.

                Are not werewolf nations of Territory and Tracking left overs from Urfarah, i.e. Lord Spirit of Hunt?
                Father Wolf's legacy as a prehistoric monster who patrolled the border between worlds doesn't have much to do with how vampires work.

                I'm talking about the fact that vampires' point of overlap with werewolves in terms of supernatural powers relating to tracking and territory tend to be filtered through very directly physical forms of Vitae — most area-affecting Disciplines and Devotions have "spread Vitae around the area" as a use requirement, half the template's sensory boosts concern themselves with sensing or leveraging blood, and the clan with the most overlap with werewolf powers has a physical transformation ability, a physical resistance booster, and a beasts-and-frenzy chain that has bloodshed or the consumption of Vitae baked into half the movelist.

                The point is that werewolves drinking vampire blood aren't going to be dealing with a Strix in most cases unless the Strix is possessing a non-Strix vampire. Are the vampires you're going to be using for this plot element Strix-based mutations of the Curse?


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