Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

how bad is lack of an auspice?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • how bad is lack of an auspice?

    how much does lack of auspice affect the Pure and their extra sensitivity to silver?
    lore-wise and math-wise
    stealth expert to stealth expert
    Rahu to Predator King

  • #2
    You lose your Auspice gift, 5 whole powers which tend to be among the most powerful in the book. You become more sensitive to silver (take lethal damage on touching it, as oppose to just a slight sting - though being attacked by silver is the same either way, aggravated). You lose access to Auspice abilities, which are generally pretty useful. Lose access to free Essence from looking at your auspice moon in the sky. Lastly, it affects your hunter's aspect in some way, as the conditions you inflict are specific to each auspice. I'm not sure if the Pure lose access to hunter's aspect entirely, which wouldn't make sense, or if they have some generalized version that works for clashes with other predator auras, but have no specific effects otherwise, or what. Developers will probably comment on that in the future.

    Lorewise, it changes the colour of your renown brands from silver to fiery red. And it fucking hurts a lot to take out, some ritual removals potentially kill the subject (Predator kings?). It changes your standing very little in the spiritual landscape from what I can tell, Fire-Touched still have to work to cultivate their spiritual allies, but if there is any change I'd suspect it's an improvement. Of course it makes you the scorn and enemy of most of the Forsaken.

    That's all I can think of, and that's all from memory so I could be wrong or missed some stuff.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Amravanti View Post
      Lorewise, it changes the colour of your renown brands from silver to fiery red. And it fucking hurts a lot to take out, some ritual removals potentially kill the subject (Predator kings?). It changes your standing very little in the spiritual landscape from what I can tell, Fire-Touched still have to work to cultivate their spiritual allies, but if there is any change I'd suspect it's an improvement. Of course it makes you the scorn and enemy of most of the Forsaken.
      It's also a big sign that 'this wolf is one of the Pure,' which is a big flashing danger signal. Even ghost wolves who reject Luna tend to still keep their auspice brands.

      While it doesn't automatically grant allies, spirits that for whatever reason align themselves against Luna and her rule are likely to side with you.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Amravanti View Post
        Of course it makes you the scorn and enemy of most of the Forsaken.
        Perhaps, but the Pure collectively outnumber the Forsaken, which indicates the majority vote is that auspices aren't worth the effort.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
          Perhaps, but the Pure collectively outnumber the Forsaken, which indicates the majority vote is that auspices aren't worth the effort.
          The Pure collectively outnumber the Forsaken in North America in First Edition in the mid-2000s as a direct consequence of the Brethren War. It has never been a universal quality of werewolf population dynamics that the Pure are more commonplace.

          Besides which, neither side really lends much credence to the idea of a plain majority vote by headcount.


          Resident Sanguinary Analyst
          Currently Consuming: Changeling: the Lost 1e

          Comment


          • #6
            iirc in first ed the pure dominate the uk as well

            Comment


            • #7
              Either way nothing of the sort has been stated in 2nd Edition. Also, framing it as "not being worth the effort" as opposed to being the result of a battle of ideologies seems pretty disingenuous.

              Comment


              • #8
                And having an Auspice requires no effort, it's the default status of all Uratha except perhaps those burn under an Eclipse. It takes effort and pain to remove the Auspice brands.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Amravanti View Post
                  That's all I can think of, and that's all from memory so I could be wrong or missed some stuff.
                  There is also a ritual the Pure did in 1st edition in which they "hide" a soon-to-be-changed Uratha from Luna and they change but never get their auspice. Dont know how that interacts with the red brands of renown though. Its Rite of Purity, from the Pure book page 126.

                  Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
                  Perhaps, but the Pure collectively outnumber the Forsaken, which indicates the majority vote is that auspices aren't worth the effort.
                  The Pure outnumber the forsaken because otherwise they dont stand a chance as an in-setting reason for them to be a credible threat. System wise the pure suck, the pure gain a free dot in totem (1 XP) but then they loose a series of gifts which are the only ones that go 1 to 5 that the forsaken get for free when they get a lunar renown (they dont even need to sacrifice the free facet from gaining renown, they gain both), auspice ability and hunter aspect and gain arguably somewhat more offensive "Hunting conditions". And that maybe, i havent found an answer to this, they dont get their renown cap by the highest number of their lunar renown as the forsaken (meaning as an Rahu you cant get wisdom 5 until you get Purity 5) but I dont know if that cap is replaced by their tribes main renown.

                  I remember in a Apocalypse game there was a whole culture to the Ahrouns (Rahu) and how they followed FILO (First In, Last Out) but in forsaken, the way that Lunar Gifts work and the fact that the most players max lunar renown first as is more efficient, means that Rahus are FIOWTFLI (First In, Out Whenever they Feel Like It) between 8s again, +2 to 5 to health, +3 to 5 extra combat dice, automatic tilts to multiple opponents and extra armor/stamina/Weapon damage. So the old idea of the predator king as the scariest Garou is far fetches, now the Pure feel like the underdogs to the point i have to convert their 1st gifts to give them an edge or put 3 pure for each forsaken with 1 wolfblooded each and 3 humans just to make them a credible threat.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by LokiRavenSpeak View Post
                    now the Pure feel like the underdogs to the point i have to convert their 1st gifts to give them an edge or put 3 pure for each forsaken with 1 wolfblooded each and 3 humans just to make them a credible threat.
                    That seems like a bit much, but traditionally the Pure also do outnumber the Forsaken and are more aggressive when it comes to warfare. Just having two Pure for one Forsaken should be enough, but standard Pure packs were like three times the size of Forsaken ones, so that does give you three.

                    Their mercilessness also extended to things like humanity. The Pure were usually dismissive of them, or used them as pawns, while Forsaken tend to have a closer relationship, having to live alongside them rather than above them. You do have Forsaken free to kill humans, but often not to the level that the Pure would. Which means that, for instance, if your Forsaken were in a small town, the Pure would have no problems wiping it off the map the way most Forsaken might. As well they're more likely to have the kind of allies Forsaken would find anathema. Claimed, rampant spirits and beshilu are all likely to prefer Pure dominance over Forsaken's vigil.

                    And really, you shouldn't underestimate the totem. With an additional dot of the Totem Merit, and extra members, you have room for a lot more powerful spirit, easily a Rank above a comparable Forsaken pack. Even if you have a large pack with six members, loaded up with 30 Totem dots (giving you a Rank 4 spirit, powerful), a comparable Pure pack could have twelve with 60, or eighteen with 90, easily pushing at the boundaries of Rank 5 and having a type of totem capable of wrecking an entire pack of spirits.

                    All that said, the cycle seems like it would work. Forsaken get dominant, fat, complacent and wrapped up in politicking, giving time for the hungry Pure to gather up the lone and ambitious or cull the weak from packs via forced recruitment until they're ready to attack. Then they become the wasters and the Forsaken on the edges of their territories get stronger and ready. The big winners would be ghost wolf lodges like the Temple of Apollo that can stay outside of either sects politicks and stay strong on their own. It does seem to be more of an Americas thing, or at least a North America thing. As we can see from the various hunting grounds, the Pure manage to stay in power in a variety of ways but often by being viciously aggressive over territory the Forsaken wouldn't normally inhabit.

                    Even if it is a mechanically inferior method, the world is not short of people who choose to live outside of the the better parts of it, even if it means they give up its comforts and niceties, or who don't even have that opportunity.
                    Last edited by nofather; 12-10-2017, 01:33 AM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by nofather View Post
                      That seems like a bit much, but traditionally the Pure also do outnumber the Forsaken and are more aggressive when it comes to warfare. Just having two Pure for one Forsaken should be enough, but standard Pure packs were like three times the size of Forsaken ones, so that does give you three.
                      Personally, I just prefer to give the super-special gifts to avoid NPC bloat but keep them powerful. Because as chargen in Werewolf works, the average PC pack (3 to 5) players is gonna have a ratio of Uratha/Wolf-blooded/humans of 1/1/3. That means 3/3/9 to 5/5/15 so between 15 to 25 characters.

                      So if we take 2 pure for every forsaken that would mean for opposition for the lowest average pack (3 forsaken) 6/6/18 that's 30 NPCs to manage for 1 pack. It's a bit much IMO to handle comfortably. Sure I don't need them all fully stated but still, they need to have a clear excuse for why 18 humans decide to follow the Luddite caveman Predator King.

                      Originally posted by nofather View Post
                      Their mercilessness also extended to things like humanity. The Pure were usually dismissive of them, or used them as pawns, while Forsaken tend to have a closer relationship, having to live alongside them rather than above them. You do have Forsaken free to kill humans, but often not to the level that the Pure would. Which means that, for instance, if your Forsaken were in a small town, the Pure would have no problems wiping it off the map the way most Forsaken might. As well they're more likely to have the kind of allies Forsaken would find anathema. Claimed, rampant spirits and beshilu are all likely to prefer Pure dominance over Forsaken's vigil.
                      That's true though.

                      Originally posted by nofather View Post
                      And really, you shouldn't underestimate the totem. With an additional dot of the Totem Merit and extra members, you have room for a lot more powerful spirit, easily a Rank above a comparable Forsaken pack. Even if you have a large pack of six members, loaded up with 30 Totem dots (giving you a Rank 4 spirit, powerful), a comparable Pure pack could have twelve with 60, or eighteen with 90, easily pushing at the boundaries of Rank 5 and having a type of totem capable of wrecking an entire pack of spirits.
                      True though that's only in an extreme case of 12 Urathas and ranks almost-5. I have found a rank 4 to be a slight inconvenience to a pack of 3 Urathas in a fight. Less so if they got the rite that gives them +2 honorary rank.

                      Originally posted by nofather View Post
                      All that said, the cycle seems like it would work. Forsaken get dominant, fat, complacent and wrapped up in politicking, giving time for the hungry Pure to gather up the lone and ambitious or cull the weak from packs via forced recruitment until they're ready to attack. Then they become the wasters and the Forsaken on the edges of their territories get stronger and ready. The big winners would be ghost wolf lodges like the Temple of Apollo that can stay outside of either sects politicks and stay strong on their own. It does seem to be more of an Americas thing, or at least a North America thing.

                      This I disagree with, is one of those things that the game tells me it happens but practical logic doesn't exactly follow. The forsaken rarely seems to be given the opportunity of getting fat and complacent considering their tribes (except the Blood talon and to a lesser extent the Hunter in darkness) have no-short-sources of prey. Spirits claimed and humans are a constant in almost any territory. Any change in the human landscape (say a business closing or an accidental fire) would keep a forsaken occupy for months.

                      I could see however the opposite as true. That the Pure tend to get fat and complacent. Their duty is defined by their opposition if there is no more Forsaken around all of they favored prey are mostly (i am assuming a non-crossover world) humans:
                      • Fire-Touched hunt those who dishonor and disrespect the Shadow. Which, when forsaken aren't around are Humans and Azlu.
                      • The Ivory Claws hunt those who dishonor their lineage. When no forsaken are around that means mostly humans.
                      • The Predator Kings hunt those who fail to honor the hunt. When no forsaken are around means mostly humans.
                      Originally posted by nofather View Post
                      As we can see from the various hunting grounds, the Pure manage to stay in power in a variety of ways but often by being viciously aggressive over territory the Forsaken wouldn't normally inhabit.
                      I can't really speak for all the hunting grounds as the ones, not in America I skipped but something interesting I noticed was that the mention of Detroit as on of only cities in America dominated by the pure. Which most of the Pure areas are mostly wilderness and those are better or at least more stable territories than city which are caotic and way more frantic.

                      So the logic doesnt really follow. The Forsaken should normally keep themselves on edge considering their culture push them to shove their noses in dangerous stuff while the pure with no Forsaken around would tend to get complacent in better territories hunting, normally, easier prey (humans) and the rare azlu.
                      Last edited by LokiRavenSpeak; 12-10-2017, 02:35 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by LokiRavenSpeak View Post
                        True tough thats only in a extreme case of 12 Urathas and ranks almost-5. I have found a rank 4 to be a slightly inconvinience to a pack of 3 Urathas in a fight. Less so if they got the rite that gives them +2 honorary rank.
                        No such rite exists on the books, the nearest thing (the Predator's Claim Warding Gift) is area-locked and expensive, and a werewolf would need an honorary Rank of 4 in the first place to get any meaningful benefit from that bonus against a Rank 4 spirit.


                        Resident Sanguinary Analyst
                        Currently Consuming: Changeling: the Lost 1e

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                          No such rite exists on the books, the nearest thing (the Predator's Claim Warding Gift) is area-locked and expensive, and a werewolf would need an honorary Rank of 4 in the first place to get any meaningful benefit from that bonus against a Rank 4 spirit.
                          Yeah, you are right, I got it confused with the hunting ground rite and the Predator jaw section made it sound that when you outrank a spirit you dealt aggravated when if I cross-reference with the banes section it means you need to surpass its rank by 2, not 1. My bad.
                          Last edited by LokiRavenSpeak; 12-10-2017, 02:31 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by LokiRavenSpeak View Post
                            Personally, I just prefer to give the super-special gifts to avoid NPC bloat but keep them powerful. Because as chargen in Werewolf works, the average PC pack (3 to 5) players is gonna have a ratio of Uratha/Wolf-blooded/humans of 1/1/3. That means 3/3/9 to 5/5/15 so between 15 to 25 characters.
                            Are you running a game where all your werewolves and their packmates line up to confront all their antagonists? Most Wolf-blooded and human members of a pack are left out of the aggressive fighting, not the least reason is because the humans would go mad upon witnessing all the supernatural.

                            So if we take 2 pure for every forsaken that would mean for opposition for the lowest average pack (3 forsaken) 6/6/18 that's 30 NPCs to manage for 1 pack. It's a bit much IMO to handle comfortably. Sure I don't need them all fully stated but still, they need to have a clear excuse for why 18 humans decide to follow the Luddite caveman Predator King.
                            You've quoted the books pretty well before so I'm sure you know that the Predator Kings often break their own rules in regards to not using technology, but even then they are not Luddites or cavemen.

                            True though that's only in an extreme case of 12 Urathas and ranks almost-5. I have found a rank 4 to be a slight inconvenience to a pack of 3 Urathas in a fight. Less so if they got the rite that gives them +2 honorary rank.
                            How? Even a conservatively built spirit would be rolling 20 dice for every attack, knocking werewolves into Aggravated with any decent amount of successes. That's not factoring in doing it at range with Blast, draining the werewolves of Essence, using whatever Influence it may have or the other wide variety of abilities at their disposal, including simply shifting into Twilight.

                            What Rank 4 spirit did you make that your pack killed with just an inconvenience?

                            This I disagree with, is one of those things that the game tells me it happens but practical logic doesn't exactly follow. The forsaken rarely seems to be given the opportunity of getting fat and complacent considering their tribes (except the Blood talon and to a lesser extent the Hunter in darkness) have no-short-sources of prey. Spirits claimed and humans are a constant in almost any territory. Any change in the human landscape (say a business closing or an accidental fire) would keep a forsaken occupy for months.
                            A change in the Hisil doesn't mean the Forsaken have any extra work to do, they are not spirit police or balancers of the spirit environment. And without the Pure being able to recruit, you're overburdened with packs that can solve issues that pop up.

                            Pure fight the same things Forsaken do. Beshilu may be able to form tentative alliances with Fire-Touched or be used by them but that doesn't mean they or all hosts are werewolf-friendly. And you know that sacred prey doesn't mean only prey. They all hunt spirits and range into the Deep Shadow to hunt for vestiges of Father Wolf and powerful spirits to learn rare gifts from. And as you said, claimed are 'a constant in almost any territory,' and if you're not willing to side with the Pure you're siding against them.

                            I can't really speak for all the hunting grounds as the ones, not in America I skipped but something interesting I noticed was that the mention of Detroit as on of only cities in America dominated by the pure. Which most of the Pure areas are mostly wilderness and those are better or at least more stable territories than city which are caotic and way more frantic.

                            So the logic doesnt really follow. The Forsaken should normally keep themselves on edge considering their culture push them to shove their noses in dangerous stuff while the pure with no Forsaken around would tend to get complacent in better territories hunting, normally, easier prey (humans) and the rare azlu.
                            As I said, and as you should know, they hunt more than humans and they don't limit themselves to 'non-Forsaken territory.' This pops up in the fiction throughout the books but it should be fairly obvious that they aren't exactly scared of Forsaken territory borders.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by nofather View Post

                              Are you running a game where all your werewolves and their packmates line up to confront all their antagonists? Most Wolf-blooded and human members of a pack are left out of the aggressive fighting, not the least reason is because the humans would go mad upon witnessing all the supernatural.

                              You've quoted the books pretty well before so I'm sure you know that the Predator Kings often break their own rules in regards to not using technology, but even then they are not Luddites or cavemen.
                              Oh sorry, I didn't mean that wolfblooded and human are a handful to manage in combat but that they are a handful to manage as entities in a game. I run Denver which has around 60 NPCs and that, to me, it's pushing it on how to keep track of personalities motivations, a vague idea of stats and behaviors. And that's 11 packs of all werewolves with around 5 each give or take. What I meant with the Luddites cavemen comment was that that number of NPC is too high to my taste and while Stats aren't the whole concern, the fact of motivation for why they serve and how they fit with the Pure faction that is less human-friendly.

                              Originally posted by nofather View Post
                              How? Even a conservatively built spirit would be rolling 20 dice for every attack, knocking werewolves into Aggravated with any decent amount of successes. That's not factoring in doing it at range with Blast, draining the werewolves of Essence, using whatever Influence it may have or the other wide variety of abilities at their disposal, including simply shifting into Twilight.

                              What Rank 4 spirit did you make that your pack killed with just an inconvenience?
                              It was a Gluttony spirit, rank 4. 12 in both power and resistance (the maximum). 6 in Finesse so 5 points short of being the borderline rank 5. Mostly I wanted a slow brute (I had it introduce it before in the game but I didn't give him stats at the time). So 18 dices to attack + 3 as he used WP. And he was a big bag of health point.

                              He didnt had blast tough, didnt fit with my idea of what i wanted him to do, so maybe it was that. He had Drain and Regenerate as combat relevant numina.

                              However, for him to last more than 3 turns i had to really twist (and to be fair i couldnt find) how many essence he can spend in a turn. 21 dices is a lot but economy of action and Rahu´s lunar gift really kick him.

                              Because unless unless the spirit managed 18+ weapon modifier successes each turn to overflow he wouldnt make a dent on Gauru form. And the Rahu had 16 attack dice + 3 for WP and all of those dices have 8s again.

                              And thats without counting the attack of the other 2 Packmates. So, it ended up being a fairly easy fight for then just a little drawn out.

                              Originally posted by nofather View Post
                              A change in the Hisil doesn't mean the Forsaken have any extra work to do, they are not spirit police or balancers of the spirit environment. And without the Pure being able to recruit, you're overburdened with packs that can solve issues that pop up.

                              Pure fight the same things Forsaken do. Beshilu may be able to form tentative alliances with Fire-Touched or be used by them but that doesn't mean they or all hosts are werewolf-friendly. And you know that sacred prey doesn't mean only prey. They all hunt spirits and range into the Deep Shadow to hunt for vestiges of Father Wolf and powerful spirits to learn rare gifts from. And as you said, claimed are 'a constant in almost any territory,' and if you're not willing to side with the Pure you're siding against them.

                              As I said, and as you should know, they hunt more than humans and they don't limit themselves to 'non-Forsaken territory.'
                              I was speaking on general terms, obviously individual packs of pure can hunt other being just because. But the idea of the cycle of "get complacent and fat" generality seems to me more far fetched to the forsaken than to the pure. Considering that one of the "selling points" of the Pure against the Forsaken is the "freedom" from Luna´s duty.

                              Originally posted by nofather View Post
                              This pops up in the fiction throughout the books but it should be fairly obvious that they aren't exactly scared of Forsaken territory borders.
                              Yes, thats why i said it something the books tells me it happens fairly common but logic doesnt exactly follow in my opinion. Kinda like "predator kings are the most dangerous" combatants when a rahu´s lunar gift are such an over the top advantage.
                              Last edited by LokiRavenSpeak; 12-10-2017, 04:03 PM.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X