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  • #16
    Originally posted by LokiRavenSpeak View Post
    I was speaking on general terms, obviously individual packs of pure can hunt other being just because. But the idea of the cycle of "get complacent and fat" generality seems to me more far fetched to the forsaken than to the pure. Considering that one of the "selling points" of the Pure against the Forsaken is the "freedom" from Luna´s duty.
    It's depicted in a lot of the fiction and setting notes. It's not just that they get fat and complacent but that they get full of themselves. Eventually elders think they know everything and start making decisions for their own interests rather than for any greater good. A great depiction of it is in Only One Way To Win, in War Against the Pure and again in Idigam Fiction Anthology. Or real world politics. It's also a big reason why Rachel Snow is making a push against Max Roman in the Rockies territory. On one hand he's proven himself capable, on the other hand with him 'looking out' for other packs he's fostering their own weakness as well as making them more reliant on him. Protectorates are a great example of this, comparable to Orders in Mage. Every example Forsaken protectorate has grown corrupt with its own desire to survive.

    Yes, thats why i said it something the books tells me it happens fairly common but logic doesnt exactly follow in my opinion. Kinda like "predator kings are the most dangerous" combatants when a rahu´s lunar gift are such an over the top advantage.
    The first few dots of it can be replicated with a fetish. They're not an 'over the top' advantage and comparable powers to 1-4 are within fairly easy reach of werewolves without auspice. 5 dots aren't, but that's a rarity and meant to be a powerful character.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by nofather View Post

      It's depicted in a lot of the fiction and setting notes. It's not just that they get fat and complacent but that they get full of themselves. Eventually elders think they know everything and start making decisions for their own interests rather than for any greater good. A great depiction of it is in Only One Way To Win, in War Against the Pure and again in Idigam Fiction Anthology. Or real world politics. It's also a big reason why Rachel Snow is making a push against Max Roman in the Rockies territory. On one hand he's proven himself capable, on the other hand with him 'looking out' for other packs he's fostering their own weakness as well as making them more reliant on him. Protectorates are a great example of this, comparable to Orders in Mage. Every example Forsaken protectorate has grown corrupt with its own desire to survive.
      I havent read the antology (had the impression it was just reprinted fiction i already had in other books) or war against the pure (no interest in the whole crusader angle and the mechanics are outdated now) so maybe i will check it out.

      As for Roman and Denver. Honestly that is an angle very badly explore in Denver. On one hand the angle of Rache is more as "multitribal packs are bad, unitribal packs are strong" which even now in 2nd edition is kind of a bad position to uphold.

      Same with Roman, we are told that him trying to create multitribal packs is bad, however of the example provided only 1 is bad (Jaggeds skys) but New hope seems pretty good. Meanwhile Rachel whole plan is "only cooperate when thing go to shit" which is a valid one but it really does seems like the only thing stopping Roman and the other 3 packs to unite and crush her pack is their friendship. Superiority in number and all that.

      We are told that Roman fosters their weakness but never how. Even the only other fiction related to Denver i could find (the intro to the player guide) made it clear that Roman doesnt do that and honestly push packs to excel, when he tell the other alpha:

      “Shape up or ship out. Do what you promised Red Wolf, or just surrender the territory to someone who can uphold their own promises. I didn’t bring this up in front of James because this is tribe business. But just because there’s no one around watching me chew you out, don’t make the mistake of thinking I’m not being serious.”

      but unlike snow has a net to contain them.

      While the book is excellent it was written with this weird unitribal vs Multitribal packs idea that really doesnt flow. Considering most games are multitribal packs.


      Originally posted by nofather View Post
      The first few dots of it can be replicated with a fetish. They're not an 'over the top' advantage and comparable powers to 1-4 are within fairly easy reach of werewolves without auspice. 5 dots aren't, but that's a rarity and meant to be a powerful character.
      5 doth? Dont get me wrong is very useful but its also kind of the worst of all Rahu gifts. And the one better replicated with fetish.

      You roll 2 stats + 5 and each success allows either +2 to Strenght or Stamina or + 1 to armor or +1 to weapon damage but you have to pay 1 essence per turn to maintain. You could replicate those more cheaply with fetish.

      However 1 to 4 are another matter. 8s again only is mentioned by rank 5 fetish but i guess one could do a swap from a Rank 4 fetish (instead of +3 and 9 again, only 9 again). Permanently extra healtboxes equal its tricky as no-attribute boost are put on the fetish rules. The extra attack dice of the 3rd dot can be replicated same, maybe, with the automatic tilts application 4th dot.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by LokiRavenSpeak View Post
        You roll 2 stats + 5 and each success allows either +2 to Strenght or Stamina or + 1 to armor or +1 to weapon damage but you have to pay 1 essence per turn to maintain.
        You roll an Auspice Skill, the maxed Auspice Renown, and an Attribute that every non-Hishu form gives at least a +1 to. Uncontested and unresisted. For benefits that are mostly placed in form-specific enhancement Merits or other Facets. Which it stacks with.

        One Essence per turn is cheap in a combat system where the design intent includes pushing you to spend an even more limited resource as often as possible in a fight that isn't stacked in your favor.


        Resident Sanguinary Analyst
        Currently Consuming: Changeling: the Lost 1e

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Satchel View Post
          You roll an Auspice Skill, the maxed Auspice Renown, and an Attribute that every non-Hishu form gives at least a +1 to. Uncontested and unresisted. For benefits that are mostly placed in form-specific enhancement Merits or other Facets. Which it stacks with.
          Yes....thats what i said. You roll 2 stats (attribute and auspice skill) + 5 (Max purity renown).

          Originally posted by Satchel View Post
          One Essence per turn is cheap in a combat system where the design intent includes pushing you to spend an even more limited resource as often as possible in a fight that isn't stacked in your favor.
          First, i never said it was a bad gift but that is the worst gift of already very good list of gift from the Full moon. You gotta rolls so the result can be very good or very bad (Chrod wonky system) and have to spend 1 Essence per turn. Now Armor aside, Full moon gift level 1 (8 again), Strenght facet (Purity) (+purity in strenght) and Rage facet (Purity) (+Purity in damage) both cost 1 essence, last the entire scene and have a predictable bonus.

          Dont get me wrong, having those bonuses plus the level 5 is massive. But the level 5 is the most easily replicable in Fetish and if i had to choose those 3 facets cost less (3 esence for the whole scene) and give more (assuming i am in a position to choose meaning 5 purity, then in + 5 to strenght, damage and 8 again).

          EDIT: I dont have my book with me now, so i cant remember if the Rage facet is 1 essence per turn or per scene I am pretty sure it was per scene but still i can be wrong. I know the Strenght one is per scene.
          Last edited by LokiRavenSpeak; 12-10-2017, 08:24 PM.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by LokiRavenSpeak View Post
            As for Roman and Denver. Honestly that is an angle very badly explore in Denver. On one hand the angle of Rache is more as "multitribal packs are bad, unitribal packs are strong" which even now in 2nd edition is kind of a bad position to uphold.

            Same with Roman, we are told that him trying to create multitribal packs is bad, however of the example provided only 1 is bad (Jaggeds skys) but New hope seems pretty good. Meanwhile Rachel whole plan is "only cooperate when thing go to shit" which is a valid one but it really does seems like the only thing stopping Roman and the other 3 packs to unite and crush her pack is their friendship. Superiority in number and all that.
            There is more to it than than simple multitribalism.

            We are told that Roman fosters their weakness but never how. Even the only other fiction related to Denver i could find (the intro to the player guide) made it clear that Roman doesnt do that and honestly push packs to excel, when he tell the other alpha:
            He does work for them, he supplies them things they don't get on their own, he funds them, gets them connections. This is what Rachel is pointing out. They are depending on him, rather than doing things for themselves. And expects them to answer when he calls on them.

            'The Syndicate sponsors young packs, such as the New Hope pack and Jagged Sky’s pack (see p. 301 and 308, respectively, of Werewolf: The Forsaken), as well as many other packs across the Rocky Mountains. Some whisper that Roman wants to forge his “army” because it means he will be the alpha wolf over anyone who joins. Roman continues to deny those claims, but that just confirms it to his detractors. It is true, however, that Roman’s resources have allowed many struggling packs to find their feet. If he were to call in all of his markers at once, he could have a dangerous assemblage of werewolves ready to fight on his behalf.

            Dont get me wrong is very useful but its also kind of the worst of all Rahu gifts.
            That sounds like something you can homebrew a fix to.

            If you're creating a spirit that the characters are going to fight you should keep that last part in mind. You're creating a story, and even if you don't buy into that, you're creating a game, and you know all the players and their capabilities. If you build a creature that's going to be able to slaughter an entire pack except one member, and then only have it attack that one member while everyone else hits it without issue, you've built a creature that's going to die. Try not to take this as empirical proof that Rank 4 spirits are 'a slight inconvenience' to a pack of 3 Uratha.
            Last edited by nofather; 12-10-2017, 08:47 PM.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by LokiRavenSpeak View Post
              Yes....thats what i said. You roll 2 stats (attribute and auspice skill) + 5 (Max purity renown).
              You roll three stats that are unlikely to be rated low even outside of the context of building specifically for this to be a roll that a Rahu can make well. To get bonuses that stack with the type of benefits that the auspice most incentivized to Be Good At Being A Werewolf is most likely to focus on if they have reached the pinnacle of Being Good At Being A Werewolf.

              You gotta rolls so the result can be very good or very bad (Chrod wonky system)
              The only way a Rahu with Purity 5 is rolling less than five dice for this capstone power of their auspice is if they have low to no dots in Survival and minimal Stamina in Hishu form and are either fighting a Death-Raging werewolf or touching silver. There is no such thing as a "very bad" roll in that consequence that you didn't build for or elect to happen for Beats, because if it rolls no successes then you have lost the single point of Essence the Facet costs to activate, which is a hazard of every Facet with an Essence cost.

              and have to spend 1 Essence per turn.
              Again, combat runs in single-digit turns and is designed to exhaust your Willpower quickly unless you have an extreme advantage. Burning through Essence in an incident of protracted violence is par for the course.

              Now Armor aside, Full moon gift level 1 (8 again), Strenght facet (Purity) (+purity in strenght) and Rage facet (Purity) (+Purity in damage) both cost 1 essence, last the entire scene and have a predictable bonus.
              You can get 9-Again on Brawl as a Rahu for no fuel cost with a one-dot Merit, Slaughterer only works in Gauru form and doesn't have a persistent effect outside of Death Rage, and unlike bonus dots X-Again effects are feast-or-famine — an overwhelming Defense score like a high-Rank spirit with the Stalwart Numen can bring to bear is going to make 8-Again relatively meaningless compared to a flat increase in dice rolled.

              The advantage of a Moon Gift is that you don't have to pick between it and a different Shadow Gift, much less dip into tribe-unique affinities. A Rahu with Purity 5 and the baseline Moon Gift has not only a +5 to their Health, but the ability to roll to get another 4 on top of that quite comfortably if they don't instead supplement their natural regeneration with Armor that they didn't have to wear, carry, or transform to access. You get more versatility out of it and it can benefit from things that enhance rolls.

              Dont get me wrong, having those bonuses plus the level 5 is massive. But the level 5 is the most easily replicable in Fetish and if i had to choose those 3 facets cost less (3 esence for the whole scene) and give more (assuming i am in a position to choose meaning 5 purity, then in + 5 to strenght, damage and 8 again).
              You're kind of splitting hairs between three Essence and three Essence, given this comparison only remotely works in Gauru.


              Resident Sanguinary Analyst
              Currently Consuming: Changeling: the Lost 1e

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              • #22


                Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                There is no such thing as a "very bad" roll in that consequence that you didn't build for or elect to happen for Beats, because if it rolls no successes then you have lost the single point of Essence the Facet costs to activate, which is a hazard of every Facet with an Essence cost.
                I said result, not rolls. And not all facet with an essence cost are rolls.

                Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                Again, combat runs in single-digit turns and is designed to exhaust your Willpower quickly unless you have an extreme advantage. Burning through Essence in an incident of protracted violence is par for the course.
                And again, i think the gift that last for 1 scene with no roll is better than the one that last for 1 turn and depends on number of successes.

                Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                You can get 9-Again on Brawl as a Rahu for no fuel cost with a one-dot Merit, Slaughterer only works in Gauru form and doesn't have a persistent effect outside of Death Rage, and unlike bonus dots X-Again effects are feast-or-famine — an overwhelming Defense score like a high-Rank spirit with the Stalwart Numen can bring to bear is going to make 8-Again relatively meaningless compared to a flat increase in dice rolled.
                And again, you still rolling vs a flat increase of +5. Sure you can roll 15 dices and get 10 successes or get 1 or none (Chrod wonky mechanics and all) flat increase are better IMO.

                Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                The advantage of a Moon Gift is that you don't have to pick between it and a different Shadow Gift, much less dip into tribe-unique affinities. A Rahu with Purity 5 and the baseline Moon Gift has not only a +5 to their Health, but the ability to roll to get another 4 on top of that quite comfortably if they don't instead supplement their natural regeneration with Armor that they didn't have to wear, carry, or transform to access. You get more versatility out of it and it can benefit from things that enhance rolls.
                Yes, I also said that the gift is good in when stacked with the other ones. Just that cost/result, i think is not that good on its own. Nothing wrong with it, all the 5 gifts aren't earth shattering things, more like nifty situational tricks.

                Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                You're kind of splitting hairs between three Essence and three Essence, given this comparison only remotely works in Gauru.
                And considering the Full moon gift causes lunacy is not exactly Masquerade friendly. Maybe in duels 1 on 1, not in Gauru or when you ran out of Gauru turns is most useful in other forms.


                Originally posted by nofather View Post
                He does work for them, he supplies them things they don't get on their own, he funds them, gets them connections. This is what Rachel is pointing out. They are depending on him, rather than doing things for themselves. And expects them to answer when he calls on them.

                'The Syndicate sponsors young packs, such as the New Hope pack and Jagged Sky’s pack (see p. 301 and 308, respectively, of Werewolf: The Forsaken), as well as many other packs across the Rocky Mountains. Some whisper that Roman wants to forge his “army” because it means he will be the alpha wolf over anyone who joins. Roman continues to deny those claims, but that just confirms it to his detractors. It is true, however, that Roman’s resources have allowed many struggling packs to find their feet. If he were to call in all of his markers at once, he could have a dangerous assemblage of werewolves ready to fight on his behalf.
                Thing is, isn't that how Uratha pack relationships works? Favor for favors, just that in this case Roman is just saving his for a rainy day? Even the Red Knives, who side more with Rachael Snow use that model to get weapons from Rachael Snow to exchange for pack protecting their territory.

                Originally posted by nofather View Post
                That sounds like something you can homebrew a fix to.

                If you're creating a spirit that the characters are going to fight you should keep that last part in mind. You're creating a story, and even if you don't buy into that, you're creating a game, and you know all the players and their capabilities. If you build a creature that's going to be able to slaughter an entire pack except one member, and then only have it attack that one member while everyone else hits it without issue, you've built a creature that's going to die. Try not to take this as empirical proof that Rank 4 spirits are 'a slight inconvenience' to a pack of 3 Uratha.
                First I never said that all attacks were on the Rahu, but being the first one to charge does certainly makes the focus of an NPC. However between their lunar gifts of the Rahu, economy of action and the threshold of overflow spirits only at rank 4 start to be troublesome.

                What i mean by the threshold of overflow is that while in Gauru (lets assume a character with size 5, stamina 3 so health 12 in Gauru) need to reach overflow each turn, in this case 13 damage and only 1 damage count (the overflow aggravated damage), next turn the spirit gotta reach 12+ damage and then only anything pass 12 will count and so on and so. If any turn he misses the overflow then the turn was wasted.

                On the other hand, Urathas hit the spirit and their damage always count and remains there until the spirit spends essence to heal. So even subpar damage stack (3 damage for example) while spirit always need to hit high number.

                In my experience, the only way for spirits to be a threat is throwing 2 every 3 Urathas for rank 4 and 3 for rank 3 spirits to make it a challenge.


                Originally posted by nofather View Post
                5 dots aren't, but that's a rarity and meant to be a powerful character.
                This is also something interesting because from what I gather in Forsaken reaching the 5 in renown can be the apocalypse equivalent of being rank 2. There is no renown loss for sticking outside of auspice. And your Honorary rank is decided by renown total. So I seen more PC maxing out Lunar renown first and a few others to reach Rank 3 and then avoid hitting the ceiling of renowns can never surpass max lunar renown.

                Even culturally, while Apocalypse said that a Elder (rank 5) Garou was a master of his own auspice. Leading the Nation and the new generations and had clear focus socially to stick to your renown. While Forsaken put emphasis being like Father wolf and being the ultimate predator considering you need almost 5 in all renowns to be a rank 5. I seen the most normal progression to be shooting as fast as possible to Lunar renown 5 to reach rank 2, and then concentrate on the other renowns. Making the 5 dots in lunar renown fairly common. Also why most are very underwhelming, not bad per say but nothing earth shattering.
                Last edited by LokiRavenSpeak; 12-10-2017, 11:39 PM.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by LokiRavenSpeak View Post
                  Thing is, isn't that how Uratha pack relationships works? Favor for favors, just that in this case Roman is just saving his for a rainy day? Even the Red Knives, who side more with Rachael Snow use that model to get weapons from Rachael Snow to exchange for pack protecting their territory.
                  Uratha relationships can work in a lot of ways. His method can be comparable to a crime lord, demon or other entity who takes advantage of those in need, however. They aren't seeking him out, he's seeking them out, offering them things, and not telling them what they may have to do in the future for it. It can be as simple as 'unite if there's a great attack,' but Snow is (understandably) concerned that he will use them for something more self-serving.

                  What i mean by the threshold of overflow is that while in Gauru (lets assume a character with size 5, stamina 3 so health 12 in Gauru) need to reach overflow each turn, in this case 13 damage and only 1 damage count (the overflow aggravated damage), next turn the spirit gotta reach 12+ damage and then only anything pass 12 will count and so on and so. If any turn he misses the overflow then the turn was wasted.
                  On the other hand, Urathas hit the spirit and their damage always count and remains there until the spirit spends essence to heal. So even subpar damage stack (3 damage for example) while spirit always need to hit high number.

                  In my experience, the only way for spirits to be a threat is throwing 2 every 3 Urathas for rank 4 and 3 for rank 3 spirits to make it a challenge.
                  You seem to know the rules. If you don't want to tailor these scenes to make them more of a challenge, that's entirely reasonable. These games are here to be run the way you want. But, again, your example is not a great one, especially for painting all of spirits. A Rank 2 spirit can knock a werewolf deep into Aggravated in one shot because your werewolves are not always loping around in gauru. A Rank 4 spirit can boost its Traits by 6 for an entire scene. They're likely to be larger than human (not a guarantee) and not restricted to a base Size 5 Health. They tend to have larger Defense, and have Willpower just like a Werewolf does. Your Rank 4 spirit has a base dicepool of 18 for attacking (not counting Defense) that could be jumped up to 33. That's not counting things like ephemeral weapons that add flat Damage or Stalwart which would have doubled your spirits Defense.

                  This is also something interesting because from what I gather in Forsaken reaching the 5 in renown can be the apocalypse equivalent of being rank 2. There is no renown loss for sticking outside of auspice. And your Honorary rank is decided by renown total. So I seen more PC maxing out Lunar renown first and a few others to reach Rank 3 and then avoid hitting the ceiling of renowns can never surpass max lunar renown.

                  Even culturally, while Apocalypse said that a Elder (rank 5) Garou was a master of his own auspice. Leading the Nation and the new generations and had clear focus socially to stick to your renown. While Forsaken put emphasis being like Father wolf and being the ultimate predator considering you need almost 5 in all renowns to be a rank 5. I seen the most normal progression to be shooting as fast as possible to Lunar renown 5 to reach rank 2, and then concentrate on the other renowns. Making the 5 dots in lunar renown fairly common.
                  The Renown section is pretty clear with this and specific deeds and aims are scattered throughout the books. Gaining Renown takes stakes and sacrifice. It's topping some of the greatest achievements in your life and the stories of which are going to be branded on your body and soul for all to see.

                  Again, this seems more to be about how you run your games. And if you want to run them like Apocalypse that also seems like an easy houserule. 'You can lose Renown for performing a deed that goes against that Renown.'

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by LokiRavenSpeak View Post
                    I said result, not rolls. And not all facet with an essence cost are rolls.
                    Most Facets with an Essence cost are not freebies you get by getting better at your auspice Renown.

                    And again, i think the gift that last for 1 scene with no roll is better than the one that last for 1 turn and depends on number of successes.
                    It doesn't last for one turn, is the thing, nor is the cost of letting it lapse and rolling again more substantial than the price of maintenance beyond taking an instant action to restart, and again, I think the Gift that can emulate the effects of about three other Gifts, Merits, or transformations with a single Facet is a wiser option than pouring resources into multiple combat-oriented Facets for anyone whose Rahu concept is not the archetype of a Blood Talon beatstick.

                    And again, you still rolling vs a flat increase of +5. Sure you can roll 15 dices and get 10 successes or get 1 or none (Chrod wonky mechanics and all) flat increase are better IMO.
                    Frankly I'd rather take the slim opportunity for a Beat from dramatic failure over opting into every murderboost at my discretion and becoming a commensurately more dangerous liability if my pack finds themselves needing to hold me back from a killing spree, but my point is that Killer Instinct does not actually make you any more likely to hit your target and that in comparison rolling a sizeable dicepool for at least a +2 bonus is going to serve you better in the combat department than making your dice explode more.

                    Yes, I also said that the gift is good in when stacked with the other ones.
                    I'm not talking about it being good in combination with other Gifts, I'm saying that getting the Gift of Rage requires investment that you could spend on other Gifts and meanwhile the vast majority of Rahu who hit Purity 5 are going to have access to the Crimson Spasm and will have a much wider variety of uses to put it towards besides combat.

                    And considering the Full moon gift causes lunacy is not exactly Masquerade friendly.
                    My dude, Dalu form — actual, for-real Dalu form rather than a freaky Moon Gift Facet that inflicts an identical degree of Lunacy to Dalu form — is called out as not being especially unusual and serving as a common low-profile hunting form and a Lunacy roll with a +2 is the least likely to result in any witnesses being a problem. "Someone makes a breaking point roll for Lunacy" is not ideal, yes, but witnesses being Spooked, Shaken, or Guilty, acting at a moderate penalty for a little while, and reinventing the scene in their minds is the opposite of The Herd Knowing.
                    Last edited by Satchel; 12-11-2017, 01:01 AM. Reason: Typo.


                    Resident Sanguinary Analyst
                    Currently Consuming: Changeling: the Lost 1e

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by nofather View Post
                      You seem to know the rules. If you don't want to tailor these scenes to make them more of a challenge, that's entirely reasonable. These games are here to be run the way you want. But, again, your example is not a great one, especially for painting all of spirits. A Rank 2 spirit can knock a werewolf deep into Aggravated in one shot because your werewolves are not always loping around in gauru. A Rank 4 spirit can boost its Traits by 6 for an entire scene. They're likely to be larger than human (not a guarantee) and not restricted to a base Size 5 Health. They tend to have larger Defense, and have Willpower just like a Werewolf does. Your Rank 4 spirit has a base dicepool of 18 for attacking (not counting Defense) that could be jumped up to 33. That's not counting things like ephemeral weapons that add flat Damage or Stalwart which would have doubled your spirits Defense.
                      You are right about the boost, I thought it was per turn. My bad there


                      Originally posted by nofather View Post
                      The Renown section is pretty clear with this and specific deeds and aims are scattered throughout the books. Gaining Renown takes stakes and sacrifice. It's topping some of the greatest achievements in your life and the stories of which are going to be branded on your body and soul for all to see.
                      Yet the book mention that each achievement has to be bigger than the last. Making a point of mentioned young Urathas falling into a trap of doing amazing things at first and then not being able to top them up and getting stuck into a renown. Also, the fact that it takes stakes and sacrifices doesn't have anything to do with what I mentioned of rushing at rank 5. Getting renown is always difficult so reaching 5 lunar renown first and then working the rest or just generalizing and spreading your focus is all paths to the same thing.

                      Originally posted by nofather View Post
                      Again, this seems more to be about how you run your games. And if you want to run them like Apocalypse that also seems like an easy houserule. 'You can lose Renown for performing a deed that goes against that Renown.'
                      I think we are misunderstanding here, i am not saying Apocalypse is better. I am saying that the model of what an elder looks like is different for both game. Apocalypse elder is a master of their auspice/ renown, Forsaken model is an apex predator master of all Renowns.

                      The idea of "mastering" your auspice came from Apocalypsis model in which the idea of secret and powerful gifts was a thing. When now, level 5 gifts are okay nothing earth shattering and there isn't any kind of secret or powerful gifts. All (except lunar) are accessible to all and all are roughly the same level (all facets are the equivalent of a rank 3 from 1st ed forsaken). So then the idea of Getting 5 on your own renown being rare is questionable. Kinda works like mage in which you rush to get Path Arcanum 5, and then worry about the others. But being a master in 1 arcanum is nothing really special while being a master of 4 arcanums is. Not saying each model is bad, but that so far I haven't found anything that contradicts that in 2nd beyond each accomplishment must be more impressive than the last.
                      Last edited by LokiRavenSpeak; 12-11-2017, 01:06 AM.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                        Most Facets with an Essence cost are not freebies you get by getting better at your auspice Renown.
                        What? Yes they are. You do gain a facet and a lunar gift each time you gain a lunar renown. And there are Facets that get better the more renown you have. The ones i am comparing for example. You only have to buy the gift list ( and even then you gain a free facet when you do)

                        Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                        It doesn't last for one turn, is the thing, nor is the cost of letting it lapse and rolling again more substantial than the price of maintenance beyond taking an instant action to restart, and again, I think the Gift that can emulate the effects of about three other Gifts, Merits, or transformations with a single Facet is a wiser option than pouring resources into multiple combat-oriented Facets for anyone whose Rahu concept is not the archetype of a Blood Talon beatstick.
                        Okay, and I disagree. Dont know what you want me to tell you. You think a gift that cost 1 essence per turn and is dependant on success is better than a combination of gifts. I disagree, i even took care to said constantly that is my opinion. And i am not even saying the gift is bad, just thats the lowest in an excellent gift list. Also is just 1 Gift list you have to branch out (Rage) Strenght in from the Rahu list (and you get both a free face and lunar gift when you get lunar renown).

                        Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                        Frankly I'd rather take the slim opportunity for a Beat from dramatic failure over opting into every murderboost at my discretion and becoming a commensurately more dangerous liability if my pack finds themselves needing to hold me back from a killing spree, but my point is that Killer Instinct does not actually make you any more likely to hit your target and that in comparison rolling a sizeable dicepool for at least a +2 bonus is going to serve you better in the combat department than making your dice explode more.
                        And in my experience is the other way around. Adding more dice to the bucket is not better than the over the top result killer instict + Strenght Purity facet can give.

                        Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                        I'm not talking about it being good in combination with other Gifts, I'm saying that getting the Gift of Rage requires investment that you could spend on other Gifts and meanwhile the vast majority of Rahu who hit Purity 5 are going to have access to the Crimson Spasm and will have a much wider variety of uses to put it towards besides combat.

                        My dude, Dalu form actual, for-real Dalu form rather than a freaky Moon Gift Facet that inflicts an identical degree of Lunacy to Dalu form — is called out as not being especially unusual and serving as a common low-profile hunting form and a Lunacy roll with a +2 is the least likely to result in any witnesses being a problem. "Someone makes a breaking point roll for Lunacy" is not ideal, yes, but witnesses being Spooked, Shaken, or Guilty, acting at a moderate penalty for a little while, and reinventing the scene in their minds is the opposite of The Herd Knowing.
                        Just saying is not exactly a subtle gift, between lunacy inducing and the description "flesh buckles, warps, and spasms as it twists into a primal form" and also armor, aside the strength boost doesn't have any visible effect beyond "more strength".

                        But look, if you think is the most awesome gift of the Full moon list or from the entire moon gifts and has plenty of uses outside of combat. That's fine, is your opinion but we are going in circles. To me its an okay gifts like most of the rank 5 gifts which are okay nothing earth-shattering. Just nice little tricks to add to a PC but nothing to write home about (except the new moons and panopticon). This is not even a critique of the game, i think it was done on purpose as to me reaching rank 5 in your auspice renown is nothing special with werewolf power level not increasing vertically but horizontally. But after plenty of back and forth, i am not gonna convince you and you won't convince me.
                        Last edited by LokiRavenSpeak; 12-11-2017, 01:32 AM.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by LokiRavenSpeak View Post
                          What? Yes they are.
                          If you are not a Storm Lord, you have to go out of your way to get the Gift of Weather. If you are not a Bone Shadow, you have to go out of your way to get the Gift of Death. If you are not a Rahu, you do not get a free bonus Facet on top of the one you get as a free pick from the available options in the Shadow Gifts you've opened up every time you increase your Purity specifically. If you want to, say, branch through the Gift of Dominance or your tribal Giftset instead and not put all of your complementary Facets into making your Death Rage more dangerous, you have to pick between doing that and doing something else. Crimson Spasm takes some of the weight off of "put resources into Strength/Stamina/Armor/weapon bonus" as the "something else" just by making your inherent Clash of Wills rolls work better.

                          Okay, and I disagree. Dont know what you want me to tell you. You think a gift that cost 1 essence per turn and is dependant on success is better than a combination of gifts.
                          I think getting the former without needing to specially invest in it is better than having to dedicate character development resources toward opening up new Gifts purely for the sake of having more combat boosts. I think spending at least three different Renown's worth of free picks or six Experiences specifically on filling out the Strength Facets as a character who isn't specifically focused on being their pack's siege weapon if not preferable to just being a dutiful adherent to the Oath of the Moon who recognizes that their lunar heritage gives them options. Not everything werewolves fight is best fought by hitting it really hard with their claws and teeth.

                          And in my experience is the other way around. Adding more dice to the bucket is not better than the over the top result killer instict + Strenght Purity facet can give.
                          I was not comparing bonus dice to bonus dice plus 8-Again — that's an inherently unbalanced comparison. "The roll is more likely to succeed at all" being better than "if the roll succeeds at all, it is more likely to succeed hugely" is not substantially different from "you get a flat bonus to your fixed traits" being better than "you are not guaranteed a flat bonus, but you have a good chance of getting a bigger bonus than the flat boost provides." Despite this, you've seen fit to mention Killer Instinct as though it doesn't present the same problem on its own that roll-dependent stat boosts do, which I feel is disingenuous.


                          Resident Sanguinary Analyst
                          Currently Consuming: Changeling: the Lost 1e

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                            I think getting the former without needing to specially invest in it is better than having to dedicate character development resources toward opening up new Gifts purely for the sake of having more combat boosts. I think spending at least three different Renown's worth of free picks or six Experiences specifically on filling out the Strength Facets as a character who isn't specifically focused on being their pack's siege weapon if not preferable to just being a dutiful adherent to the Oath of the Moon who recognizes that their lunar heritage gives them options. Not everything werewolves fight is best fought by hitting it really hard with their claws and teeth.
                            The only special investment is the Gift of Rage list. The strenght list is in the Rahu list. So sure, one can choose not to pick it but its one of the 2 list you get discount from auspice so wouldnt be weird no to (unless on has a very specific character concept in mind)

                            Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                            I was not comparing bonus dice to bonus dice plus 8-Again — that's an inherently unbalanced comparison.
                            You kinda were comparing

                            Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                            but my point is that Killer Instinct does not actually make you any more likely to hit your target and that in comparison rolling a sizeable dicepool for at least a +2 bonus is going to serve you better in the combat department than making your dice explode more.
                            Its a entirely matter of opinion. I think the flat bonus to strenght + 8s again + damage is way better than the bonus you can get from a roll and have to maintain with each turn. But as you say, you think the gift liberates your options more to non-combat oriented Rahus and has many other uses. I disagree on it being better

                            Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                            ​ "The roll is more likely to succeed at all" being better than "if the roll succeeds at all, it is more likely to succeed hugely" is not substantially different from "you get a flat bonus to your fixed traits" being better than "you are not guaranteed a flat bonus, but you have a good chance of getting a bigger bonus than the flat boost provides." Despite this, you've seen fit to mention Killer Instinct as though it doesn't present the same problem on its own that roll-dependent stat boosts do, which I feel is disingenuous.
                            Its not desingenous because ithe activation doesnt require a roll. You pay 1 essence and for the rest of the scene you gain 8 again. While 5 dot full moon, you have to make a roll, see how many successes you get, assign then and then pay 1 essence per turn to maintain it.

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                            • #29
                              Well, this went off the rails. What was the topic again?

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                              • #30
                                * enters to see what’s up
                                * sees the vast, soulless blank of a white room
                                * flees


                                MtAw Homebrew: Even more Legacies, updated to 2E

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