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  • [2E] Fixing Dread Powers

    WtF 2E is highly based on Dread Powers of various Preys. I found some of their mechanics to be too much or too little compared to Uratha capabilities. Here is topic for finding those and talking over them.

    1. Colossus Dread Power - Generally, it's great package of rules for 'giant, massive monster' to use for your making your enemies. However, the problem is with it's 'gains general Armor equal to its Resistance' part - as most beings having Colossus in first place would naturally have Resistance over 5 ( they are COLOSSUS, in the end ) - so it makes being practically 'unhittable' with anything that is non-Bane. I found that much better is give beings general Armor equal to Rank, rather. It's then still hard to opposed most attacks - but not making being immune to anything less than granade launcher. Most those beings still be Rank 3-4, so they will still damn powerful to oppose most weapons damage.


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  • #2
    Well, wasn’t “unhittable by anything but its Bane” the intended effect?


    A question of my own; how does everyone deal with the almost-identical Dread Powers between CofD core and Werewolf? Does the latter override the former, or are they separate?


    MtAw Homebrew: Even more Legacies, updated to 2E

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    • #3
      Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
      Colossus Dread Power - Generally, it's great package of rules for 'giant, massive monster' to use for your making your enemies. However, the problem is with it's 'gains general Armor equal to its Resistance' part - as most beings having Colossus in first place would naturally have Resistance over 5 ( they are COLOSSUS, in the end ) - so it makes being practically 'unhittable' with anything that is non-Bane.
      This is a game with a core Merit whose effects start with giving one of your form's natural weapons AP2, advances to giving that same weapon an extra point of damage, and caps with blanket negation of non-magical armor.

      This is also a game where the Dread Power you're talking about is part of a list of abilities demonstrated by the powerful out-of-context problem antagonists for which the gameline's Chronicle is named, whose predominant issues include "figuring out this thing's weaknesses is difficult and may require you to investigate the beings it creates before you even begin to set about the process of finding the highly specific bane of a Rank 4-5 spiritual being."

      I'm going to put forward the notion that this is a feature, not a bug.


      Resident Sanguinary Analyst
      Currently Consuming: Changeling: the Lost 1e

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      • #4
        Originally posted by 21C Hermit View Post
        Well, wasn’t “unhittable by anything but its Bane” the intended effect?
        Should it? With Colossus beings - they will have really high Resistance levels, just from conceptual level. Add to it rather large Size, doubled Corpus bonus from Resistance ( it's in Dread Power Description ) and we easily are beyond 20 Corpus, often in levels of 50+. Add to it “unhittable by anything but its Bane” and we look over things that even when NOT BIGGEST AND MONSTROUS in the world - i.e. Size 20-30, like a plane - and we end with thing that PCs cannot do any damage. Like even levels of 1-2 Lethals on Corpus 50. It's simply too much. I can understand 'we hit it with rocket launcher and it was to it like swing of baseball bat' ( i.e. Lethal 1-3 ), but reducing any damage PCs can make ( remember, we talk here about high Resistance beings, so Armor like 5+ ) to 1 Bashing on Corpus 50 levels is just insanely demotivating to players.

        Compare to my Fear of Scales Rank 4 being - this ancient Pangean-like Norse Dragon that has 'typical' Corpus of circa of 58 boxes. Add to it it's Resistance as Armor - i.e. 10 points - and PCs need to hit it like 30 times by 11+ to even go it to half of it's Health track to make it retreat. Without some sort divine intervention, PCs are powerless to do it ANYTHING without Bane.

        I'm all into making Bane the easiest way to kill being - but some damage should be possible to get it normally, even to stop by being in looking for proper solution.
        Last edited by wyrdhamster; 12-17-2017, 12:01 AM.


        LGBT+ in CoD games
        Dark Eras fan stuff hub ( with Eras inside ):
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        • #5
          It really seems like with Colossus it would depend completely on the group and situation, and otherwise it's doing what it's supposed to.

          You don't just tack on a Dread Power because it sounds cool. You have your players character sheets, you have likely seen them in combat, you should know how much damage they are capable of doing. Moreover, the Colossus Dread Power is originally for idigam. It is for a chronicle-spanning threat that can conceivably take multiple packs to fight.

          By all means, lower it for your own game or excise it completely. There's no reason to think that should be the case for everyone's game.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Satchel View Post
            This is a game with a core Merit whose effects start with giving one of your form's natural weapons AP2, advances to giving that same weapon an extra point of damage, and caps with blanket negation of non-magical armor.
            Could you point those to me in 2E corebook? I did miss those info to this day.


            LGBT+ in CoD games
            Dark Eras fan stuff hub ( with Eras inside ):
            Byzantine Empire in Middle Ages ( 330–1453 A.D.)
            Conquest of Paradise – Portugal and Spain in 15th century and their conquests
            My stuff for VtR 2E, WtF 2E, MtAw 2E & BtP

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            • #7
              Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post

              Could you point those to me in 2E corebook? I did miss those info to this day.
              It's Living Weapon, the third of the three core Merits that let you boost specific forms alongside Fortified Form and Favored Form.


              Resident Sanguinary Analyst
              Currently Consuming: Changeling: the Lost 1e

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              • #8
                Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post

                Should it? With Colossus beings - they will have really high Stamina levels, just from conceptual level. Add to it rather large Size, doubled Corpus bonus from Resistance ( it's in Dread Power descripton ) and we easily are beyond 20 Corpus, often in levels of 50+. Add to it “unhittable by anything but its Bane” and we look over things that even when NOT BIGGEST AND MONSTEROUS in the world - i.e. Size 20-30, like a plane - and we end with thing that PCs cannot do any damage. Like even levels of 1-2 Lethals on Corpus 50. It's simply too much. I can understand 'we hit it with rocket launcher and it was to it like swing of baseball bat' ( i.e. Lethal 1-3 ), but reducing any damage PCs can make ( remember, we talk here about high Resistance beings, so Armor like 5+ ) to 1 Bashing on Corpus 50 levels is just insanely demotivating to players.

                Compare to my http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/main-category/main-forum/the-new-world-of-darkness/werewolf-the-forsaken/1137943-2e-fear-of-scales-–-dragon-idigam?p=1138235#post1138235"]Fear of Scales Rank 4 being[/URL] - this ancient Pangean-like Norse Dragon that has 'typical' Corpus of circa of 58 boxes. Add to it it's Resistance as Armor - 10 points - and PCs need to hit it like 30 times by 11+ to even go it to half of it's Health track to make it retreat. Without some sort divine intervention, PCs are powerless to do it ANYTHING without Bane.

                I'm all into making Bane the easiest way to kill being - but some damage should be possible to get it normally, even to stop by being in looking for proper solution.
                I don’t complain when I can’t demolish a building with my barehands; I bring explosives and experienced personnel. When lions hunt an elephant, they don’t charge at it from the front in a glorious blaze of battle; they wait until it is weakened, distract its kin away so that is isolated, harry it to tire it, and only then move in for the kill.

                Similar logic here. If a prey can’t be brought down by claws and fangs, perhaps more esoteric means are required after all. Certainly the apex predators of Flesh and Shadow are smart enough to do so.


                MtAw Homebrew: Even more Legacies, updated to 2E

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                • #9
                  While on the subject of Dread Powers; can a creature take the Numen Dread Power to gain access to angelic Numina? Should it be banned? It’s a thought that came to me after rereading the (unofficial) stats for Lycaon-Ur.


                  MtAw Homebrew: Even more Legacies, updated to 2E

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by 21C Hermit View Post
                    While on the subject of Dread Powers; can a creature take the Numen Dread Power to gain access to angelic Numina? Should it be banned? It’s a thought that came to me after rereading the (unofficial) stats for Lycaon-Ur.
                    Does he have any Numina?

                    I don't see why it should be banned. Maybe a little rare, but you do have things like spirits that might have worked closely with or devoured angels. Plus considering there's spirits of basically everything you're bound to have some overlap in capabilities.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by nofather View Post

                      Does he have any Numina?

                      I don't see why it should be banned. Maybe a little rare, but you do have things like spirits that might have worked closely with or devoured angels. Plus considering there's spirits of basically everything you're bound to have some overlap in capabilities.
                      Not Lycaon-Ur himself; his writeup inspired me about spirits interacting with angels, with the writeup heavily implying that Lycaon-Ur’s transformation had to do with them.

                      And your advice is sound. Back to the tinkering lab, it seems.


                      MtAw Homebrew: Even more Legacies, updated to 2E

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
                        WtF 2E is highly based on Dread Powers of various Preys. I found some of their mechanics to be too much or too little compared to Uratha capabilities. Here is topic for finding those and talking over them.

                        1. Colossus Dread Power - Generally, it's great package of rules for 'giant, massive monster' to use for your making your enemies. However, the problem is with it's 'gains general Armor equal to its Resistance' part - as most beings having Colossus in first place would naturally have Resistance over 5 ( they are COLOSSUS, in the end ) - so it makes being practically 'unhittable' with anything that is non-Bane. I found that much better is give beings general Armor equal to Rank, rather. It's then still hard to opposed most attacks - but not making being immune to anything less than granade launcher. Most those beings still be Rank 3-4, so they will still damn powerful to oppose most weapons damage.
                        I actually like it the way it is since it gives trouble to the PCs, it makes them think with the mind instead of their muscles and I love it.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by 21C Hermit View Post
                          While on the subject of Dread Powers; can a creature take the Numen Dread Power to gain access to angelic Numina? Should it be banned? It’s a thought that came to me after rereading the (unofficial) stats for Lycaon-Ur.
                          That's going to have to be an ST call. Now, in general, the assumption here is that werewolf critters are going to have spirit-based numina. But if its appropriate for an antagonist to have something like this, then sure, go for it.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                            It's Living Weapon, the third of the three core Merits that let you boost specific forms alongside Fortified Form and Favored Form.
                            Okay, so if I take Living Weapon and maxed out it for Gauru claws they will have bypass 2 Armor of Colossus being, they will do +3 Damage - so it's will 'bypass' Armor 5 on hit, is it? Or will Living Weapon ***** let you automaticly bypass even Armor 10+ in Colossus beings?

                            Originally posted by 21C Hermit View Post
                            I don’t complain when I can’t demolish a building with my barehands; I bring explosives and experienced personnel.
                            The problem is before modern times - I run a Viking Era WtF game ( year 800 A.D. ) and I cannot envision things making this more than +5 Damage that are not some 'ancient artifact of great power' to even scratch Colossus being with RAW. On last game session players used Balista made with +4 Damage and +5 bonus from Planing action - but still got only a 6 Lethal on shooting being with it, so even with my lowered Armor to Idigam Rank ( 4 in Coaleseed Form ) they only made it 2 Lethal. Out of Corpus 70 of it. So it's hitting by Balista, fully prepared, is like stabbing by toothpick on normal person. On lowered by my the Armor on Colossal Idigam.

                            Originally posted by 21C Hermit View Post
                            When lions hunt an elephant, they don’t charge at it from the front in a glorious blaze of battle; they wait until it is weakened, distract its kin away so that is isolated, harry it to tire it, and only then move in for the kill.
                            HOW can you make something weakened that any non-modern Weapon of Massive Distraction is like toothpick for it? Finding 'the one and only Bane' for Rank 4-5 being is not very much an answer when it's destroying your village. You need at least to weakened it so you can have time to look for proper Bane for it. Do SOMETHING before finding one and final solution.


                            LGBT+ in CoD games
                            Dark Eras fan stuff hub ( with Eras inside ):
                            Byzantine Empire in Middle Ages ( 330–1453 A.D.)
                            Conquest of Paradise – Portugal and Spain in 15th century and their conquests
                            My stuff for VtR 2E, WtF 2E, MtAw 2E & BtP

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                              This is a game with a core Merit whose effects start with giving one of your form's natural weapons AP2, advances to giving that same weapon an extra point of damage, and caps with blanket negation of non-magical armor.
                              And lets not forget Shaping gift Facet (Glory) which gives you glory´s in armor piercing.

                              Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
                              WtF 2E is highly based on Dread Powers of various Preys. I found some of their mechanics to be too much or too little compared to Uratha capabilities. Here is topic for finding those and talking over them.

                              1. Colossus Dread Power - Generally, it's great package of rules for 'giant, massive monster' to use for your making your enemies. However, the problem is with it's 'gains general Armor equal to its Resistance' part - as most beings having Colossus in first place would naturally have Resistance over 5 ( they are COLOSSUS, in the end ) - so it makes being practically 'unhittable' with anything that is non-Bane. I found that much better is give beings general Armor equal to Rank, rather. It's then still hard to opposed most attacks - but not making being immune to anything less than granade launcher. Most those beings still be Rank 3-4, so they will still damn powerful to oppose most weapons damage.
                              I am kind of confuse by this because that doesnt seem to be a Dread power to werewolves usual prey but for Idigam. The closest thing for "normal prey" (claimed, host etc) is the Armored hide (pag 216) that goes 1 to 3 and gives you that rating of armor. I kind of like your idea as a way to have a stronger armor for some of the usual prey (not Idigam).

                              Or if you can just replicate Stalwart (193) numina that works the same but it adds to defense instead of armor.

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