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Reconciling Pure and Forsaken

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  • Reconciling Pure and Forsaken

    So lately I wonder how you even can make Pure and Moon Tribes to work long-term in one region of game. Even when there was pointing that there are canonical examples of those in 2E materials to WtF, there are some things that cannot let me accept it truly. For start, I will list things I think made this long co-operation between Forsaken and Pure impossible – or very unstable – from Pure side of things:
    1. ‘Original Sin’ - Tribes of Moon are descendants of murderers that killed Urfarah, Father Wolf, and those that ended Pangea – As Wolf is most sacred being in Pure mythology – and this primal ‘betrayal’ of future Forsaken – is cornerstone on to Pure Tribes are build on to. Without ‘original sin’ of Moon Tribes forefather – there is no reason to call Pure, well… the Pure. There are only Uratha. And there is no really Pure – Forsaken division. And Urfarah still will not be avenged. Someone still need to pay for Father Wolf’s death! And we still do not have Pangea back!
    2. Tribes of Moon work for… well, the Moon – As basic of ‘original sin’ concept in Pure faction of Uratha lies something other – it’s Luna, the Queen Bitch, that talked over Moon Tribes forefather to slay Urfarah. She is shapchanging, mood swinging alien planets Hisil goddess – that is branding every Uratha with Auspice on First Change however she likes it. You heard about this soldier guy that become Ithaeur on Change? Or this politician that become Rahu? Or this thief that become Cahalith? It’s all just ‘mood swings’ of Luna. Your whole future as werewolf is just her crude joke! And later on Lunes are her spies that want to control – and judge – every your step. Let’s bring Father Wolf back!
    3. Auspices – and lack of it – Pure are tearing their Auspices as soon as possible. They have pulsing spiritual scares in place of inner Moon Phase connection each other Uratha have. To talk for them with Irraka or Rahu is missing most of inner instincts those from Forsaken have. On the other hand, many members of Tribes of Moon are disgusted seeing fanatics scars Pure are self-inflicting over themselves. It’s extremism for them, marking forever oneself from their spiritual Moon Mother. Both groups can speak in First Toung – but I feel they simply cannot understand each other enough here.
    4. Humans – To Moon Tribes, their human counterparts are constant anchors to Flesh side of their nature – partners, lovers, friends – reminders for them that they are, in-part, still humans – even as Uratha, they are ‘human flesh with wolf spirit’. To Pure – humans are breading stock that invaded their world and probably are co-responsible for Fall of Pangea. They are at least nuisance to reclaiming Pangea – at worst, are masses of enemies that destroy their Spirits Lords powers by doing contrary to what they should.
    And to sum up – quote from WtF 2E corebook:

    ‘The Pure Tribes reject the creed of the Forsaken and their bonds with Luna. Their reasons are many — some yearn for a return of the hunter’s paradise of Pangaea and blame the Warden Moon and the Forsakens’ forebears for its fall, while others refuse to believe that the Shadow must be kept in balance and see the Hisil as their true heritage. This rift between the Pure and the Forsaken is no mere family squabble — it is a bloody and brutal conflict, a guerrilla war that has been chewing up werewolves and spitting out their broken remains for millennia.’

    HOW can those two groups tossed against one another by history and fate works with one another? I could see this on mission or particular Hunt – or not killing one another on sight, maybe - but on constant, regional cooperation? They are just too extremists in mindset to one another, in my point of view.
    Last edited by wyrdhamster; 12-23-2017, 01:48 AM.

    My stuff for Scion 2E, CoD Contagion, Dark Eras, VtR 2E, WtF 2E, MtAw 2E & BtP
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  • #2
    Now, let’s see where we have Forsaken-Pure cooperation pointed in – however I cannot see it working because of point’s 1-4 on previous post…

    In Forsaken by Rome where Pure and Tribes of Moon are in alliance in Rome!

    Originally posted by nofather View Post
    Taking Forsaken by Rome as an example - the Ivory Claws want bloodline purity, the Iron Masters want to try new concepts to see how they work. This is what brought two ‘enemy’ tribes together under Rome’s banner - because it offered something to each of them.
    To be true - it's still does that Rome Protectorate does not seems as proper cooperation to me - it's more 'we are two dog clans on this arena ( Rome ) so we better talk somethings with one another to not overkill one another' - but's it the same antagonists like you would see on two Mafia family meetings. Two Mafia's is still a very far away from proper cooperation.

    And we still have other models shown in books...

    Originally posted by nofather View Post
    The Holmes County, Ohio Hunting Ground has them living in the same area peacefully where a serious battle hasn't been fought between them in 100 years, and Acrozatarim has mentioned a few times that packs and protectorates containing both are a thing. It's not common, but it happens, like in his Hong Kong setting and the Great Packs.

    My stuff for Scion 2E, CoD Contagion, Dark Eras, VtR 2E, WtF 2E, MtAw 2E & BtP
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    • #3
      Is it so shocking that Uratha can be as cynical as humans?


      • #4
        1. Not all werewolves are thoroughly invested in the original sin story. Especially in the face of great gains if one puts it to the side, or great losses if you pursue it.

        2. Luna doesn't actively control the werewolves, either do the lunes, and they're not chosen as totems. Throw in another spirit (each tribe has a Firstborn, there's a variety of Secondborn, and a ton of others that could fit) and you have less of an emphasis on Luna.

        3. When you deal with other people sometimes you have to appreciate that they are other people, with other lifestyle choices and things about them. Part of social life is accepting that, or at least ignoring it while you reap the benefits of friendship. Considering that you don't need to get that close to have a peace treaty or alliance, it shouldn't be as big a deal.

        4. You're basing Pure feelings on first edition. Ivory Claws are about respecting parentage, one can't do that with breeding stock. Predator Kings hunt those who disrespect the hunt, but there's plenty of humans who would be as vicious hunters, as respectful to the hunt as them. There's also a ton of mortal occultists who would learn to respect the Shadow for the Fire-Touched. And there's always going to be humans who are willing to join a cause that sees the world they know it destroyed and would step in line when it came for a chance to bring about a new Pangaea. Willingness to treat humans like chattel is a personal decision, rather than tribe, and one can find werewolves who treat humans like lesser beings among the Forsaken and Ghost Wolves.

        If you make every Pure an extremist who would die than let a Forsaken live, then sure, you're going to have a problem. But they seem to be depicted as deeper than that, and clearly have members who are conservative and willing to put aside problems for a greater good, whether it's a long lasting peace, or a brief alliance while power is consolidated or even just getting something they need. There's plenty of reasons for them to be able to work together, the books have offered them. You don't have to use them but the examples are there.
        Last edited by nofather; 12-22-2017, 02:04 PM.


        • #5
          TL;DR Treat the characters as people, not stereotypes.

          MtAw Homebrew: Even more Legacies, updated to 2E


          • #6
            It’s impossible for the tribes as a whole to reconcile now, the thousands of years of bloodshed and propaganda make such a unification of the species a pipe dream of a pipe dream.

            But on individual and pack basis? It likely happens all the time. Like it’s been said werewoofs are people too; psychotic adult-children, but people all the same. In my games I have tons of Pure who don’t actually hate the Forsaken at all, they simply do not agree with the tribal doctrines of the Moon Tribes.


            • #7
              Just want to say that I really like this thread as it presents more than a "Destroy the enemy!" mentality that I think can sometimes come into action oriented RPGs from my experience of it.


              • #8
                I'd suggest looking into international politics to get some examples of people with shapely divided interest finding common ground for mutual benefit. Yes, ideologically the Forsaken and Pure hate eachother and have good reason to.

                Let me suggest a few potential enemies for joint uratha action
                Hosts the strengthen the Gauntlet.
                Human cults and sorcerers who distort the balance of the spirit world and profane loci.
                Literally anything that is so powerful both the Storm Lords and Predator Kings can't say no to hunting it out of pride.


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Knit-I-Fine View Post
                  Literally anything that is so powerful both the Storm Lords and Predator Kings can't say no to hunting it out of pride.
                  Perhaps something ripped its way out of the between space that is the Gauntlet.

                  Perhaps that something was a Pangaean.

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                  • #10
                    The interesting thing about werewolves is that they need to engage in stories that focus as much on the human side of life as on the spiritual side. Otherwise, your chronicle becomes unbalanced and.... Anyway, humans are always moving about, doing things and mucking stuff up. But the wolves need them! Even the Predator Kings need them, much to their annoyance, even as they will try to weed out the not-wolf blooded from their kin-group and subsist on a more primal, tribal basis.

                    Ivory Claws do the exact same thing, only on a larger scale.

                    Predator Kings are about how you live. Ivory Claws are about who you are. Fire Touched are about how you believe. (Oversimplifications, of course.)

                    Within the Urathra, you have a group that as a whole is focused on tending the garden. Even if the Pure tribes hate the Urathra they could find gardeners useful. You may achieve a protectorate-style arrangement rather easily between Forsaken and Pure under several conditions:

                    1. The Pure are much stronger, but find the Urathra too useful/dangerous/bothersome to root out. You get Pure dominating the structure and Forsaken as underlings. Picture how tributary ethnic or religious groups have been treated under a more monolithic overlord: they're a source of labor, resources and recruitment over time.

                    2. Relative parity is established, and the value of the resources demands an accommodation instead of scorched-earth warfare. This is the FbR scenario. I'm sure the Iron Masters and Ivory Claws could have fought to the last talon, but someone else would have reaped the benefits of Rome, Roman rule, and the human resources both tribes prized (for different reasons).

                    3. The Urathra are much stronger, but find the Pure tribes to be useful and/or too troublesome to squash. Extremists can be very well-behaved with a knife to their throats, and each of the Pure are portrayed in ways that point out how useful they *could* be, if they weren't focusing on the negative aspects of their relationships with the Forsaken and/or humans. Also, the People do not Kill the People is foundation enough for Forsaken tribes to seriously discuss less-violent accommodations with small Pure groups.

                    Now: all this gets thrown out the window when you have enough bad-blood established in a given area, with a given group of leaders, who cannot bring themselves to bury the hatchet more than temporarily.

                    And that? That's a very, very human reaction: hate.



                    • #11
                      Great points Khanwulf, only one question - What is Urathra? Because Uratha is whole 'proper werewolf' race ( minus Wolf-Blooded ). So Uratha are Forsaken, Pure + Ghost Wolves. First Tongue word for only Forsaken Tribes is Urdaga and for Pure is Anshega.
                      Last edited by wyrdhamster; 01-08-2018, 12:48 PM.

                      My stuff for Scion 2E, CoD Contagion, Dark Eras, VtR 2E, WtF 2E, MtAw 2E & BtP
                      LGBT+ in CoD games


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
                        Great points Khanwulf, only one question - What is Urathra? Because Uratha is whole 'proper werewolf' race ( minus Wolf-Blooded ). So Uratha are Forsaken, Pure + Ghost Wolves. First Tongue word for only Forsaken Tribes is Urdaga and for Pure is Anshega.
                        I'm probably using Urathra improperly, when the intended meaning is Urdaga.

                        On this point, keep in mind that just because Pure are angry and bitter, they haven't lost all sense individually and as leaders: it's well-established among humans that if you want something from someone you can get better long-term results with honey instead of vinegar (to use the idiom). If your ultimate goal is "wipe out the Urdaga" a very practical approach in the absence of overwhelming power and freedom from repercussions would be to grind them down through recruitment. In fact, this is exactly why the Pure focus on finding the first-changed immediately....