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Ten Spirits Binded

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  • #31
    Question, how would vassalage and spirit nobles work with pack totems? Can a pack totem remain part of a spirit court? And how would the numina that grant the lord control over the spirit work with a pack totem? For example tyrant mas or web of power.

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    • #32
      Off the top of my head, I’d say that while a totem could technically still be part of a spirit court, the totem bond severs any control mechanisms like Tyrant Mask and prevents them from working on the spirit in future. There’s a good backstory in a spirit seeking to escape the tyrannical control of its spirit liege by bonding with a werewolf pack, hoping for greater say in its future, and protection from its former ruler.

      This also means that spirit court rulers have an interesting choice to make: (a) keep the totem spirit as part of the spirit court, but a semi-independent one, work with it on a slightly more equal footing, and reap the advantages of having a vassal who feels invested in the court and will push its werewolf pack to advance court interests from time to time, (b) exile the totem spirit from the court and hope that the former vassal is now too busy helping the wolves tend their territory to invest energy in pointing its allied furry murder machines in your direction.

      I imagine the spirit ruler’s choice is going to be at least somewhat dictated by its nature, which may not lead it to making the ‘best’ choice. Either way, there’s good Hisil-based drama in this.


      Writes stuff. Sometimes you like it.
      WoD | Changing Breeds, Umbra, Book of the Wyrm, Shattered Dreams CofD | Werewolf: The Forsaken 2nd ed, Idigam Anthology, The Pack, Demon Storyteller's Guide, Hurt Locker, Dark Eras Companion, Beast Player's Guide, Deviant: The Renegades
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      • #33
        Originally posted by Bunyip View Post
        Off the top of my head, I’d say that while a totem could technically still be part of a spirit court, the totem bond severs any control mechanisms like Tyrant Mask and prevents them from working on the spirit in future. There’s a good backstory in a spirit seeking to escape the tyrannical control of its spirit liege by bonding with a werewolf pack, hoping for greater say in its future, and protection from its former ruler.

        This also means that spirit court rulers have an interesting choice to make: (a) keep the totem spirit as part of the spirit court, but a semi-independent one, work with it on a slightly more equal footing, and reap the advantages of having a vassal who feels invested in the court and will push its werewolf pack to advance court interests from time to time, (b) exile the totem spirit from the court and hope that the former vassal is now too busy helping the wolves tend their territory to invest energy in pointing its allied furry murder machines in your direction.

        I imagine the spirit ruler’s choice is going to be at least somewhat dictated by its nature, which may not lead it to making the ‘best’ choice. Either way, there’s good Hisil-based drama in this.
        IIRC, one of your sample pack merits modeled a totem with a court of it's own.

        Acrozatarim: Is there thematic overlap between such groupings of spirits and what 1e called a brood of spirit? They were groupings of spirits that coexisted and feed on similar phenomena (grief and anger hanging out with death; fear and revenge hanging out with violence). Broods sound more egalitarians in that respect.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Malus View Post

          IIRC, one of your sample pack merits modeled a totem with a court of it's own.

          I did indeed, and I think these two systems could work together. But, as these are both just fan writings, Acrozatarim and I aren’t coordinating our musings at all. (Note to Acrozatarim - as I’m totally not the developer at all, clear your stuff with me first, okay? )

          For the drama and world building, I think these things should be one way. If the pack has a totem powerful enough to be a noble, then it can impose its will on its court as per Acro’s stuff. (*cough* Pure totems *cough*). But nobles can’t impose their will directly on servants who become totems. It shakes up the Hisil power structures. Spirit rulers have to be keep their subjects in line, but have to be careful when werewolves are around, because that could change everything.

          Smart spirit nobles bind their subjects in webs of obligations and reciprocal favours. Loyalty through giving as well as taking. Just becoming a totem does nothing to free a spirit from the favours it owes, and now it has more resources to meet its obligations. Just because a noble can’t force a subject through Numina doesn’t mean it can’t impose its will in others ways.



          Writes stuff. Sometimes you like it.
          WoD | Changing Breeds, Umbra, Book of the Wyrm, Shattered Dreams CofD | Werewolf: The Forsaken 2nd ed, Idigam Anthology, The Pack, Demon Storyteller's Guide, Hurt Locker, Dark Eras Companion, Beast Player's Guide, Deviant: The Renegades
          The Trinity Continuum | Æon

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Second Chances View Post
            Hey, this may work as a better framework for your dragon than as an idigam while still catching some of the feeling you want. I know that ship has sailed already, but if you revisit it in the future, it may be worth considering.
            No, this not will work as framework - whole idea of Dragon as Prey is that it's ancient, mobile predator. Spirit Nobles are bonded to particular region's powers - they are intertwined in local Hisil geopolitics. Spirit Noble cannot move a lot or it will lose it vassals. But cool to have Spirit Nobles as possible Totems for Pure Packs.
            Last edited by wyrdhamster; 01-03-2018, 01:08 PM.


            Conquest of Paradise - Fan Dark Era about Portugal and Spain conquests in XVI century - Mage & Beast ( & Hunter )
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            • #36
              Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post

              No, this not will work as framework - whole idea of Dragon as Prey is that it's ancient, mobile predator. Spirit Nobles are bonded to particular region's powers - they are intertwined in local Hisil geopolitics. Spirit Noble cannot move a lot or it will lose it vassals. But cool to have Spirit Nobles as possible Totems for Pure Packs.
              I've no clue where you get this from. Plenty of mobile concept would still spawn nobles. Birds, Air, transport, & information come to mind with just 10 seconds of pondering.

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              • #37
                just a little thing which I was inspired to write while thinking about the similarity between nobles and idigam-

                Apocrypha
                This story is true. Have you ever noticed how the greatest of spirits, those who leads the choirs of Hisil and bind the hosts of the Shadow to their will have some.. similar features to the Moon Banished? Well, some Bone Shadows whisper that it is not just a coincidence. They say that once, when Pangaea was wild and the Shadow was strong, before Father Wolf was chosen by Warden Moon to serve as his champion and lover, the true nobles of Pangaea controlled the Essence of the world, commanding legions of spirits and freely melding flesh and spirit. They were not merely nobles- but true kings and queens, a breed apart of their lesser kind, chosen by right to rule both Flesh and Shadow. While Luna and Helios were far above them as twin Emperor and Empress, Mother Moon quickly saw how the power hungry nobles has started to set their eyes to the stars, wishing to take their light for their own. Recognizing the danger, she chose one of the greatest among the "commoner spirits" to serve as her knight and champion- Father Wolf (some say that the Sun chose his own, but that's another story to tell). Powered by the Moon's light with a power meant only for the emperors of creation, he became the Great Predator, and was sent to serve his lady and punish those rouge kings which dared to challenge the Sun and the Moon. One by one, Mother Wolf picked them from their courts and sent them to Luna's surface, spending the rest of their existence as deposed queens with no court to give them meaning and Essence. With the fall of the kings, the greatest among the lesser breed of Hisil took up their crowns and scepters, cloaks and thrones, named themselves as nobles and imagined they have even a glimpse of the power the former, true rulers of the Shadow had. The state was left as is since then, and even the fall of Urfarah and the rise of the Gauntlet didn't changed it- but Man did. Where the kings and queen has failed, humanity has succeeded- they touched the stars, they reached to the Moon and came back... bringing the fallen royalty with them. The kings of the Shadow are back, and they wish to take back what it's theirs. And you know what I say about that? Viva la revolucion, that's what.
                Last edited by LostLight; 01-03-2018, 03:14 PM.


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                • #38
                  Utter blasphemy, of course.

                  I like the way some werewolves could take it, though, sort of a mix between the Quicksilver Children (who seem to like the idea of idigam founding werewolves) and the Shadow Throne (who believe the Hisil needs a hierarchy and they're the ones to rule it).

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by LostLight View Post
                    just a little thing which I was inspired to write while thinking about the similarity between nobles and idigam-

                    Apocrypha
                    Totally taking this Apocrypha as 'This story is true' for my WtF chronicles - Making Idigams deposed Pangean Royality that want to take vengeance on Uratha and spirits 'usurpers' makes so much sense and 'antagonists right' to not use it!


                    Conquest of Paradise - Fan Dark Era about Portugal and Spain conquests in XVI century - Mage & Beast ( & Hunter )
                    My Hubs - VtR 2E System Hacks, MtAw 2E Legacies and System Hacks & WtF 2E Lodges and System Hacks

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by LostLight View Post
                      I really like how spirit nobles are presented- it really gives an interesting aspect to the politics of the Shadow, and grounds a concept which always was out there. Well done. Also, is it me, or that the powers of a spirit noble- shaping the terrain, vassals and itself- kinda reminds of the Essence Shaping abilities of the Idigam? Makes you think, ha?
                      ​They're something of a halfway house towards a few of the themes found in idigam Essence Shaping, yes; powers that give a sense of wider connections, abilities to manipulate the nature of the world in which they live, etc etc.


                      - Chris Allen
                      Freelance Writer, Deviant: the Renegade / The Pack / Dark Eras / Werewolf: the Forsaken 2nd Edition / Idigam Anthology / Fallen World Chronicle / Trinity Aeon

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by LokiRavenSpeak View Post
                        Question, how would vassalage and spirit nobles work with pack totems? Can a pack totem remain part of a spirit court? And how would the numina that grant the lord control over the spirit work with a pack totem? For example tyrant mas or web of power.
                        ​So, I could go a few different ways on it, really, as they all work to some extent. Yes, a pack totem can certainly be part of a court, brood or choir - and many totems likely use their pack as a resource to build their own power within their society, while that society in turn likely includes a number of powerful spirits who will be less than happy at the change to the status quo that Uratha meddling involves. Becoming a proper noble is an ambition or striving that a totem can claw its way towards and likely have a pack willing to help, at least initially; later on, if the balance of power between spirit and werewolves shifts, or the totem becomes increasingly embroiled in intrusive and bizarre spirit politics, or things generally change in a way the werewolves aren't comfortable with, they might come to regret supporting such.

                        ​Can noble numina affect a totem? If they do, it adds to the threat and risk of the involvement of spirit nobles; if they don't, it makes totems more of a disruptive influence in the spirit ecology. Either's good.

                        Originally posted by Malus View Post
                        Acrozatarim: Is there thematic overlap between such groupings of spirits and what 1e called a brood of spirit? They were groupings of spirits that coexisted and feed on similar phenomena (grief and anger hanging out with death; fear and revenge hanging out with violence). Broods sound more egalitarians in that respect.
                        ​Broods of spirits still exist in 2e! See pg.182 of the Werewolf 2e corebook.


                        - Chris Allen
                        Freelance Writer, Deviant: the Renegade / The Pack / Dark Eras / Werewolf: the Forsaken 2nd Edition / Idigam Anthology / Fallen World Chronicle / Trinity Aeon

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                        • #42
                          Please disregard this post.


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