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[2E] Uratha in Death Rage chasing his opponents

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  • [2E] Uratha in Death Rage chasing his opponents

    So lately there was talk about making Beaten Down rules for Death Raging Uratha. Heavy Arms had in it great idea to resolve problem with what to do when werewolf is in Basu-Im ( Hard Rage ) and - mechanically - you cannot done anything with it. Arms advised to run proper Chase for his PCs victims!

    Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
    I would just break out the CofD core book and switch from the Combat rules to the Chase rules (chase rounds are 30 seconds to 1 minute by default as a plus), and if those trying to tire the Kuruth werewolf out win the Chase (which they'll easily do in Urhan or Urshul if available, or as a teamwork action, or both) then stop rolling and just play out the rest of the time. If the Death Raging werewolf catches up, then hit combat until there's a sensible narrative point to them trying to turn it into another Chase.

    Ideally this would play out something like the pace of Terminator 2. The T-1000 catches up with the heroes. The T-100 and Sarah shoot at it a lot knowing they can't really stop it, but enough to hamper it until [plot device] gives them enough distance to flee. Sometimes they flee well enough to get away (for now) sometimes not and it catches up with them quickly resulting in more fruitless combat to try the next escape plan.
    As I thinking about running this kind scenario in my future games, I started this topic. Unfortunately, I was having prepared earlier Chase Rules for Uratha Forms but cannot find it on the time. So can talk more on topic, I will return later when finding my Chase Rules based on CoD Rulebook.



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  • #2
    Wyrd, you could have just continued the discussion in the actual thread where it was being discussed. I find it difficult keeping track of the new threads you make for every random thing that catches your attention.


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    • #3
      Bunyip, this topic will have nothing with Beaten Down rules in any way - it will be it's own thing. Just see.


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      • #4
        Okay, I dug up my fan Chase rules for Uratha. Now to compare them to Gauru Death Rage abilities...

        Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
        So I read more on the topic in both WtF 2E and CoD Rulebook - here is my take on the matter. Notice, if not stated otherwise, use rules from Chase in CoD Rulebook, p. 84.

        Set the Terms: Terms are calculated based on Hishu form traits.

        Teamwork: Packs often Chase together. Each participant in Chase choose side they help. Highest Dicepool in each turn for the side is Primary Actor in Chase rolls treated as Teamwork action. Chases with your Pack are much easier. 😊

        Edge: Resolve Edge normally – unless the pursuer or prey is in Urhan – if in it look for the rules for this form below.

        Form: Each werewolf can declare free shifting his form for this Chase turn and use it’s traits, as they take from half to one minute anyway. It does not change the Terms calculated on start of Chase.

        Dicepool: Uratha and Wolf-Blooded can always use their chosen Form Speed trait as Dicepool in each Chase turn, but they suffer cumulative penalty for changing dicepool, if side with Edge did not choose it ( -1 cumulative to rolls and no 10 again ) – unless they are in Urhan form, see rules below.

        Forms Chase rules

        Those are special rules for varies form in Chase scenes.

        Hishu: Following general Hishu power Sheep Clothing ( WtF 2E, p. 96 ) any Chase that is in the pursue character through crowd or populated areas suffer her Primal Urge as a penalty in turn she is in Hishu.

        Dalu: Following general Dalu power Badass Motherfucker ( WtF 2E, p. 96 ), when Chase his prey in crowd, werewolf in Dalu can use Presence + Primal Urge dicepool instead of normal one for Chase, without cumulative penalty.

        Gauru: Uratha cannot assume Gauru in Chase as it would instantly change it to combat. If character is still doing this, Gauru needs to roll his last time Chase Dicepool and get all the needed success. Otherwise, prey run out and need to be looked for by Tracking rules. Only Gauru is risking Basu-Im because of not satisfying Hunt and must roll Resolve + Composure – on failure Gauru enters Basu-Im, with all the consequences.

        Urshul: Following general Urshul power Weaken the Prey ( WtF 2E, p. 97 ), once per scene, when Urshul side get’s more successes than enemy – it can give Arm Wrack, Leg Wrack, or Knocked Down Tilts to his enemy.

        Urhan: This form is perfect for foot chases. Following general Urhan power Chase Down ( WtF 2E, p. 98 ), werewolf in it can freely use their Speed as Dicepool, even if side with Edge choose other Dicepool. If being in previous Chase turn in Urhan, werewolf can get Edge by paying 1 Essence. If two or more werewolves are taking this Edge by Essence, resolve by Clash of Wills rolled on their Speed dicepool.
        Last edited by wyrdhamster; 01-24-2018, 09:44 AM.


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        • #5
          So thinking on the matter - opponents, can be other PCs, are running away. They have Edge in normal situations. They choose dicepools. However, werewolf in Hard Rage Gauru cannot choose higher mental actions. What would be correct dicepools for them to Chase their victims, with cumulative -1 for not choosing correct Dicepool? Strength + Dexterity? Or maybe Strength + Athletics, always?


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          • #6
            Just from the second quote to your own shameless plug out of your own iteration of needless rules I can identify that you've no clue what 'setting a scene' means. I may be being unjust because you likely don't have enough command of English to give the published Chase rules a fair reading, and thus equate 'setup' from a gamist philosophy and not from the dramatic one.

            Here's how I run trying to escape from a Gauru in the throes of Death Rage: You take Urhan whilst praying to Luna this mofo doesn't has Predator's Unmatched Pursuit which would enable you to run circles around them. If they do have PUP, things may go more interesting. Without taking into account collateral damage, obviously.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Malus View Post
              Here's how I run trying to escape from a Gauru in the throes of Death Rage: You take Urhan whilst praying to Luna this mofo doesn't has Predator's Unmatched Pursuit which would enable you to run circles around them. If they do have PUP, things may go more interesting. Without taking into account collateral damage, obviously.
              What is Predator's Unmatched Pursuit? I cannot find it in the 2E corebook. Do you not meant Chase Down power from Urhan?

              Originally posted by Malus View Post
              Just from the second quote to your own shameless plug out of your own iteration of needless rules I can identify that you've no clue what 'setting a scene' means. I may be being unjust because you likely don't have enough command of English to give the published Chase rules a fair reading, and thus equate 'setup' from a gamist philosophy and not from the dramatic one.
              <Snark I will gladly silence on>


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              • #8
                Gift of Strength, Glory Facet, pg. 132 Werewolf 2E Core

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                • #9
                  (Edit: wyrdhamster It's not snark. I'm sincere in my notion you do not dominate enough of the language to give the game as written a fair reading, which is why I suspect you can't consider these simple issues.)

                  The thing about unleashed Kuruth in order of dramatic importance as I see it follow this pyramid:

                  1) Will I be liable to join in on the frenzy? Did I join in on the frenzy? Now I have to investigate what the hell happened. Who died. Whom did I ate.

                  2) If not, will there be collateral damage? What about damage to the Oath? Witnesses, Lunacy liable to cause Mortals to become easier prey to spirits (I'm looking at the reception condition). Is there evidence something supernatural happened that I ought to erase (such as video footage)? Can I cut the frenzy short? Do I have to have my whole pack savage the mindless Uratha in the hopes of killing him quick enough as to prevent regeneration? Am I alone with it and would need to resort to cannibalism, or if I was prepared, silver?

                  All of the above questions IMO, matter way, way more than rolling dice to see if the big bad wolf caught you or not.
                  Last edited by Malus; 05-23-2018, 12:23 PM.

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                  • #10
                    Okay, reading Predator's Unmatched Pursuit I can certinly see why it would be used by those having it to run away in Chase. But question would be other - What would use Uratha in Death Rage as dicepool to roll? In Basu-Im character is limited to only simple actions, related to attacking.

                    'While in Basu-Im, the werewolf ignores wound penalties, and any attempts to influence, intimidate, or otherwise change the Uratha’s course of action by mundane or supernatural means suffer twice the werewolf’s Primal Urge as a penalty. This is over and above any Supernatural Tolerance (p. 160) applied to supernatural powers.'

                    So as to choosing the Dicepool from Chase rules in CoD Rulebook:

                    'If you can’t easily determine who has the Edge at a given moment, make a contested roll. Usually, this will be based on Wits or Dexterity. The relevant Skill should relate to the context. Often, this will be Athletics, Streetwise, Survival, or similar. Don’t be limited; let characters lean on their areas of expertise when possible.'

                    But then we have a problem with simplification of thought processes in Basu-Im. Should not raging Uratha simply take to roll his Dexterity + Athletics? The Speed dicepool is locked for Urhan and Basu-Im is only limited to Gauru.


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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Malus View Post
                      All of the above questions IMO, matter way, way more than rolling dice to see if the big bad wolf caught you or not.
                      And I do not agree with you here. As Death Rage is not some meta-existing plot resolution - some scenes just cannot go with Fade to Black policy. Examples - you fight with Pure, you hurt one of them enough he goes into Basu-Im, whole pack join him in Rage. They will find you if you not run away. Considering then Oath breaches, moral implications and all a like is not really doing fair service to the enemy you have here. You have a bestial, mad werewolves after you - running Chase scene then seems crucial to the survival of your character. Axing scene with 'And we wake up 5 minutes later' is cheapening the scene for players.
                      Last edited by wyrdhamster; 05-23-2018, 12:58 PM.


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                      • #12
                        Here's the dilemma you seem to be vaulting over, which I'll try again to depict:

                        Urhan can -easily- outrun a Gauru, unless he's equipped with PUP, as previously stated (you glossed this over probably because I used the 'running circles around them' phrase, which basically means they're stupidly faster than the average Gauru, say, not unlike a human and a turtle competing on a race: the person can run circles around the turtle multiple times along it's course and still win, easily.)

                        The issue is one of detachment versus duty: Do you risk your (and your pack's) skin against a most relentless foe in pursuit of one's duty to keep the Herd from potentially knowing, and causing all manner of spiritual disruption; or do you simply escape and try to run damage control in the aftermath?

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
                          But question would be other - What would use Uratha in Death Rage as dicepool to roll? In Basu-Im character is limited to only simple actions, related to attacking.
                          You're overthinking this. They roll whatever the rolls is, because the limitation from Basu-Im doesn't apply. They're rolling to close on their targets so they can attack them.

                          Originally posted by Malus View Post
                          Urhan can -easily- outrun a Gauru, unless he's equipped with PUP, as previously stated (you glossed this over probably because I used the 'running circles around them' phrase, which basically means they're stupidly faster than the average Gauru, say, not unlike a human and a turtle competing on a race: the person can run circles around the turtle multiple times along it's course and still win, easily.)
                          You're overstating this significantly. Urhan has a +1 Speed advantage over Gauru. Urshul (the best Speed boost) is only a +3 advantage. These are well within the ranges of what different characters might have based on their other Traits.

                          An Uratha with base Strength 3/Dexterity 3 and Fleet of Foot 2 in Gauru, is going to outrun an Uratha with the same base stats without the Merit in Urhan.

                          This isn't a human vs. a turtle, and even if it was, wyrdhamster's desire to play out the drama of being chased by a werewolf in Kuruth is a valid thing even if it isn't what you'd personally focus on. Also:

                          The issue is one of detachment versus duty: Do you risk your (and your pack's) skin against a most relentless foe in pursuit of one's duty to keep the Herd from potentially knowing, and causing all manner of spiritual disruption; or do you simply escape and try to run damage control in the aftermath?
                          None of this is excluded from using the Chase rules here. One of the big reasons why I like the idea of using the Chase rules, is that maintaining the Edge means the group being chased can use the Edge to manipulate the course of events. The Chase rules are more than just a foot-race, they include doing things like taking advantage of the terrain towards your advantage. Do you rely on your raw speed advantage to hold and lead the Kuruth werewolf away from the Herd? Or do you risk the narrow back alleys to impede the unthinking rage for a greater advantage, but risk being seen?

                          There's plenty of room for both sides of the coin here. You can have the visceral drama of running for your life, and the cerebral drama of choices and consequences for how you go about not getting ripped to shreds.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post

                            You're overthinking this. They roll whatever the rolls is, because the limitation from Basu-Im doesn't apply. They're rolling to close on their targets so they can attack them.



                            You're overstating this significantly. Urhan has a +1 Speed advantage over Gauru. Urshul (the best Speed boost) is only a +3 advantage. These are well within the ranges of what different characters might have based on their other Traits.

                            An Uratha with base Strength 3/Dexterity 3 and Fleet of Foot 2 in Gauru, is going to outrun an Uratha with the same base stats without the Merit in Urhan.

                            This isn't a human vs. a turtle, and even if it was, wyrdhamster's desire to play out the drama of being chased by a werewolf in Kuruth is a valid thing even if it isn't what you'd personally focus on. Also:



                            None of this is excluded from using the Chase rules here. One of the big reasons why I like the idea of using the Chase rules, is that maintaining the Edge means the group being chased can use the Edge to manipulate the course of events. The Chase rules are more than just a foot-race, they include doing things like taking advantage of the terrain towards your advantage. Do you rely on your raw speed advantage to hold and lead the Kuruth werewolf away from the Herd? Or do you risk the narrow back alleys to impede the unthinking rage for a greater advantage, but risk being seen?

                            There's plenty of room for both sides of the coin here. You can have the visceral drama of running for your life, and the cerebral drama of choices and consequences for how you go about not getting ripped to shreds.
                            The speed in Urhan only matters because it becomes their dice pool, plain and simple. With all stats being equal in your example, the Uratha in Kuruth will be rolling (on an average of Athletics 2 and Stamina 2 for both participants) 6 dice to chase the the Urhan, while the Urhan will have a whooping 12. That's double the other one's dice pool.
                            Last edited by Malus; 05-23-2018, 07:07 PM.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Malus View Post
                              The speed in Urhan only matters because it becomes their dice pool, plain and simple. With all stats being equal in your example, the Uratha in Kuruth will be rolling (on an average of Athletics 2 and Stamina 2 for both participants) 6 dice to chase the the Urhan, while the Urhan will have a whooping 12. That's double the other one's dice pool.
                              I'd make a quip about your reading skills compared to wyrd's, but that would imply you'd actually read the chase rules in the first place.


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