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  • Experienced pc suggestions

    So, I suppose almost everyone here use the Vampire The Requiem 2nd edition experienced characters chart even for Werewolves and Mages, right?
    Around the block / badass cub 5
    Rising star / Skilled Hunter 10
    Ancilla / Veteran killer 15
    Rank elder / Big Bad 25
    Mover and shaker / Ruthless Headhunter 35
    Urband Legend / Firstborn chosen 50
    Methuselah / Pangean Nightmare) 100
    I'm writing here because I'm a werewolf player and I'm gonna try to figure out if you guys include also renown and gifts into this chart.
    I mean, for example, you start with a veteran killer ( which should be the ''ancilla'') so you have 15 experience points.
    Your storyteller allow you to increase gifts and renown only with the 15 exp points or gives you a number of dots for renown and and gifts allowing you to spend the 15 exp points only for abilities/attributes/merits and so on?

    Actually I would create every pc and npc only with the points from the chart, including renown and gifts, but some of my players have some doubts about the effective power of the character if we should call it ''veteran hunter'' ( ancilla level).
    Probably because they are so impressed by the fire touched and ivory claw on the core book ( that should be urban legend, ore a little less), and they think that they are the ''avarage werewolf''.

    Had some problem explaining this in english, hope is clear enough.

    Suggestions?
    Last edited by Helur; 09-14-2018, 04:02 AM.


    -'' When the winds howl and the Storms rage, where will you run?''-

  • #2
    You spend the Experience from the table on the things you want, just as if you earned it during play. You don’t get freebies like Gifts and Renown - you buy them with the Experience.


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    • #3
      Originally posted by Helur View Post
      some of my players have some doubts about the effective power of the character if we should call it ''veteran hunter'' ( ancilla level).
      And they should be, honestly.

      The experience charts in every gameline give laughably low experience for the level of power they are supposed to represent, and don't map at all to sample characters that are actually at that power level, or to actual player character progression. This has been called out several times but it's honestly a non-issue. Give your players the experience they would need to hit the power-level you're actually aiming for, and disregard the charts entirely.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Bunyip View Post
        You spend the Experience from the table on the things you want, just as if you earned it during play. You don’t get freebies like Gifts and Renown - you buy them with the Experience.
        thank you as always Bunyip.

        Originally posted by lnodiv View Post
        And they should be, honestly.

        The experience charts in every gameline give laughably low experience for the level of power they are supposed to represent, and don't map at all to sample characters that are actually at that power level, or to actual player character progression. This has been called out several times but it's honestly a non-issue. Give your players the experience they would need to hit the power-level you're actually aiming for, and disregard the charts entirely.
        I was thinking to go something like:
        Badass Cub: 10 exp
        Skilled hunter: 25 exp
        Veteran Killer: 35 exp
        Ruthless Headhunter: 50 exp
        Firstborn Chosen: 80 exp
        Pangean Nightmare: 140 to 200 exp

        In my mind, in a hunting ground, should be present three ruthless headhunter, maybe , and again, maybe, one firstborn chosen from an alpha pack, and the avarage werewolf should be skilled hunter- veteran killer, with the young packs around cub - skilled hunter.
        At least, looking at the pure npc on the core book.
        Honestly, with the new power levels I would not allow renown above 3 until some points.

        Suggestions?



        -'' When the winds howl and the Storms rage, where will you run?''-

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        • #5
          An alternative scale I've run with is doubling the XP, treating starting characters as having 10 (because they basically do).
          Baddass Cub: 20XP (10 more)*
          Skilled Hunter: 40XP
          Veteran Killer: 80XP
          Ruthless: 160
          Chosen: 320
          Bodhisattva: 640

          Buying up Primal urge to 10 is going to take 45XP, Renown another 12 to 20 per (so 5 times) Gifts, Facets, Rites, Merits, Attributes and Skills once PU gets that high... It eats up XP fast.

          Addendum: I also use soft categorical caps to encourage diversification, so if building an NPC (or letting players start more experienced) some of those XP are restricted to thing like Skills, Attributes, Supernatural Traits, etc. based on very rough percentages.
          Last edited by Vent0; 09-15-2018, 06:47 AM.


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          • #6
            We had a thread where we built werewolves using 250 Experiences, and they were pretty much apex predators, with multiple attributes or skills above 5, often many renown. If you used the free-gift per renown system you tended to get a ton of gifts, as well.

            640 Experiences would probably let you get 10 in a lot of things, as well as max out renown with ease (Renown is 3 per dot, so it's maxed out with just 75, providing you're not counting chargen freebies, which you should because this seems to be post chargen addition).
            Last edited by nofather; 09-15-2018, 01:16 PM.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by nofather View Post
              We had a thread where we built werewolves using 250 Experiences, and they were pretty much apex predators, with multiple attributes or skills above 5, often many renown. If you used the free-gift per renown system you tended to get a ton of gifts, as well.

              640 Experiences would probably let you get 10 in a lot of things, as well as max out renown with ease (Renown is 3 per dot, so it's maxed out with just 75, providing you're not counting chargen freebies, which you should because this seems to be post chargen addition).
              250 experience points sounds like something that should appear in a chronicle maybe once per year, at least for the game style we have.
              Those are really elder and powerful npc that to me should appear as final villain or maybe as distant mysterious mentors.

              By the way.
              The Fire Touched on the core book is made up by around 80 experience point, that is basically a firstborn chosen in my chart and almost a methuselah on a vampire point of view.
              That is an insane power level, if we have to follow the experience point chart from the book.

              But honestly, to me it looks like an alpha powerful werewolf ( and very dangerous and skilled.)

              I think I will go with this ( with possible restrictions * because of the power level):

              Big Bad Wolf: 15 exp ( common uratha) * 2 maximum per renown
              Skilled hunter: 30 exp ( avarage uratha) * 3 maximum per renown
              Veteran Killer: 45 exp ( avarage alpha or alpha pack member - around two packs of those guys in a normal hunting grounds) * 3 maximum per renown, PU minimum 3
              Relentless Meat Eater: 60 exp ( uncommon and very dangerous werewolf) * one renown at 4
              Apex Predator: 80 exp ( big enemy or big ally, that should not be common to meet) * 4 maximum per renown
              Firstborn Chosen: 140 exp ( urban legend ) No restrictions
              Pangean Nightmare: 200 exp ( ''final villain'' level character) No restrictions

              And I will use it also for vampire and mage.


              I think I will post some character sheet during next days.
              Last edited by Helur; 09-16-2018, 04:16 PM.


              -'' When the winds howl and the Storms rage, where will you run?''-

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              • #8
                I feel that one of the problems you have here with expectations are the dramatic descriptions per level that just aren’t accurate. The vampire table you’ve based this off isn’t much better, admittedly.


                Writes stuff. Sometimes you like it.
                WoD | Changing Breeds, Umbra, Book of the Wyrm, Shattered Dreams | CofD | Werewolf: The Forsaken 2nd ed, Idigam Anthology, The Pack, Demon Storyteller's Guide, Hurt Locker, Dark Eras Companion, Beast Player's Guide, Deviant: The Renegades, Night Horrors: Shunned by the Moon, Mummy: The Curse 2nd ed | The Trinity Continuum Æon, Æon Æxpansion, Aberrant

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Bunyip View Post
                  I feel that one of the problems you have here with expectations are the dramatic descriptions per level that just aren’t accurate. The vampire table you’ve based this off isn’t much better, admittedly.
                  The only problem I have is exactly with the vampire table that is the official one I don't see why any table should be right or wrong , thanks to the golden rule. Also , if characters from the core books are the first things that do not respect the official table , I don't see how we can say right or wrong, honestly.
                  Respect


                  -'' When the winds howl and the Storms rage, where will you run?''-

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Bunyip View Post
                    I feel that one of the problems you have here with expectations are the dramatic descriptions per level that just aren’t accurate.
                    I think that's probably fair - but the only practical thing such tables really provide are dramatic descriptions tied to an experience level; without them, there could just be a throwaway sidebar that says 'You can give your players extra Experiences if you're starting them as more established, or desire a game with a higher power level.'

                    In my games, and most discussions I've seen on the forums, they are always used to draw comparisons to the provided description (because that's the only benefit of the current format), and setting a Methusaleh at 100 experience just...feels bad.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by lnodiv View Post
                      In my games, and most discussions I've seen on the forums, they are always used to draw comparisons to the provided description (because that's the only benefit of the current format), and setting a Methusaleh at 100 experience just...feels bad.
                      Those discussions also almost inevitably compare these starting Experience levels for PCs with pre-made NPCs who, y'know, don't actually have to worry about earning and spending Experiences. The table's not for building every character with that class of experience in the setting.


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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                        Those discussions also almost inevitably compare these starting Experience levels for PCs with pre-made NPCs who, y'know, don't actually have to worry about earning and spending Experiences. The table's not for building every character with that class of experience in the setting.
                        So if you're not supposed to play a Methuselah at 100 XP, why is that level then called Methuselah in the first place? You don't even start at the shallow end of the Methuselah pool. Regardless of which XP level you start at you'll be very far from playing what that XP level is named, and that makes the names worthless.


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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                          Those discussions also almost inevitably compare these starting Experience levels for PCs with pre-made NPCs who, y'know, don't actually have to worry about earning and spending Experiences.
                          You're not wrong, but imo that's the entire point.

                          Our only frame of reference for Elders or Methusalehs or whatever are said published characters that don't have to worry about earning and spending experience.

                          If you're going to give the experience level a name, and the only mechanical frame of reference for what it's named after are leaps and bounds away from that experience level, you've chosen a bad name; If my starting Methusaleh isn't even in the same ballpark of ability with established Elders, much less other Methusalehs...it should be called something else.

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                          • #14
                            I've never used XP charts for building NPCs, and in 1e when I ran a short, high-powered 'elders' game the XP I doled out for the players to create their characters with was far in excess of what the tables in the book suggested.


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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Acrozatarim View Post
                              I've never used XP charts for building NPCs, and in 1e when I ran a short, high-powered 'elders' game the XP I doled out for the players to create their characters with was far in excess of what the tables in the book suggested.
                              I did, once upon a time, when I thought it would only be fair to match my antagonist's power level to my hunter's XP count.

                              I very quickly realized that was a losing strategy. PC's are wily bunches designed to handle more than they can conventionally chew.


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