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[Brainstorming]To Feast Upon Pigs in Towers-A Lodge Hunting the Mammon Ministry

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  • [Brainstorming]To Feast Upon Pigs in Towers-A Lodge Hunting the Mammon Ministry

    When you have a Tribe dedicated to hunting humans(multiple, if you include the Pure), it becomes inevitable that some are going to turn their attention to the worst of the lot and set their rites and fangs against mages. It's an inevitability that I am surprised hasn't really popped up yet in discussion. Hopefully this starts a trend of cool ideas.

    ANYWAYS, where this came from was that I was working on Paris as a crossover setting(more on that later) and I had a handful of ideas that I wanted to get into with the Uratha of Paris. One of them was I wanted one of the Lucky Seven, werewolves who have become avatars for Sagrim-Ur, to have Paris as a central base(though not only base) for their larger larger territorial pursuit, and I was wracking my brain about what vision for territory they might have and to what end they hunt, someone who runs not-insignificant businesses and partakes in international hunts. They should probably represent a Lodge in terms of their farther reach and more niche interest, I figured. I was trying to put my finger on how exactly this should incarnate when it just clicked in my head that their main prey should be the Lesser Ministry of Mammon.

    So yeah. I'm here to farm ideas on what that might look like. Toss me ideas on what you think would make for cool elements on this idea. It doesn't have to tie into what I have so far up there, just fulfill the idea of a Lodge whose Sacred Prey is the Ministry of Mammon.


    Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
    The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
    Male/neutral pronouns accepted, female pronouns enjoyed.

  • #2
    Let's talk about totems. Which spirit would want to help werwulf fight the Ministry?
    It would have to be a mighty shadow noble , perhaps a spirit of death,since you can't take riches with you to the grave?
    Last edited by Nicolas Milioni; 09-28-2018, 09:52 PM.

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    • #3
      Just to get it on the thread, from Seers of the Throne, p42, 'The Exarch of Matter promotes corporate capitalism and the commoditization of every resource. Water, air, people — they should all have a price, owner, and the ability to be bought and sold for profit. The Chancellor’s star rises under his Ministry of Mammon, and Seers whisper that he’ll one day be recognized as an Archigenitor.'

      Originally posted by Nicolas Milioni View Post
      It would have to be a mighty shadow noble , perhaps a spirit of death,since you can't take riches with you to the grave?
      Mammon encourages trade. So something that might be opposed to that would be a creature of dominion. 'This is mine, no one else's.' Alternatively one that believes solely in taking via theft or other means. You could go to Mammon the Maeljin for that.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by nofather View Post
        Just to get it on the thread, from Seers of the Throne, p42, 'The Exarch of Matter promotes corporate capitalism and the commoditization of every resource. Water, air, people — they should all have a price, owner, and the ability to be bought and sold for profit. The Chancellor’s star rises under his Ministry of Mammon, and Seers whisper that he’ll one day be recognized as an Archigenitor.'



        Mammon encourages trade. So something that might be opposed to that would be a creature of dominion. 'This is mine, no one else's.' Alternatively one that believes solely in taking via theft or other means. You could go to Mammon the Maeljin for that.
        Would the real Mammon please stand up?

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Nicolas Milioni View Post
          Would the real Mammon please stand up?
          A manifestation of greed might want its name back.

          There's also economic collapses, which likely have left some pretty nasty spirits around. That would likely be one way to fight against a Ministry, bringing them about to cause distrust in trade and capitalism. At least it would be a more larger scale activity than hunting down Seers and killing them one by one. Though that can be effective, as we've seen from Angrboda.

          Might tie it into something like the Edimmu, who take sevenfold when taken from, and don't even care for themselves. Probably a lot of vampiric stuff could fit. Or another Ministry, greater or lesser, who wants Mammons knocked down a peg.
          Last edited by nofather; 09-29-2018, 12:25 AM.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by nofather View Post
            Mammon encourages trade. So something that might be opposed to that would be a creature of dominion. 'This is mine, no one else's.' Alternatively one that believes solely in taking via theft or other means. You could go to Mammon the Maeljin for that.
            Possessiveness, theft, and so forth are all concepts that operate within the propertarian paradigm- that things belong to people, not the world, and that one gains power by accumulating things, rather than sharing them.

            The opposite of trade isn't hoarding or theft- it's gift-giving.
            The potlatch ceremony of the Pacific Northwest is probably the most intensive and well-known example of a gift-giving ceremony, and one that would likely have generated or drawn powerful spirit patrons, but it's a wee bit far from Paris to be useful.
            The kula ring of Polynesia is another good example- a massive exchange network of objects (in this case, ceremonial shells) that are never really "owned", simply held temporarily, each with its own name and unique history based on the hands it has passed through.
            Polynesia is a long way off from Paris, too... but France had colonies in the region. And some of those colonized people emigrated to France. Is it possible a kula-spirit followed one of them along?
            (It also ties in nicely with the "far-reaching business interests" notion).

            If that's too exotic, Paris is also packed to the brim with museums and galleries, which are also anti-capitalistic in nature. Museum objects are owned by the nation, not by individuals, and are valued exactly because they are symbolic in nature- as we say, they are "priceless". Perhaps the Louvre is watched over by some spirit of antiquarian, sentimental inclinations?
            Last edited by robothedino; 09-29-2018, 09:43 AM.

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            • #7
              Considering that the Ministry is made essentially out of mages, perhaps the Lodge's totem could be a part of the court of the Eater of Names? After all, they were mentioned as hunting the Wise in Sundered World- so even if the Ledge members do not really understand the full nature of their totem and draw members of the Iron Masters, having the Eater as some sort of "hidden influence" upon them could be cool, IMO.

              If we take the Ministry of Mammon as the Sacred Prey, we have the themes of materialism, trade and magic. Sagrim Ur covers the second, the Eater covers the third, and so their totem should cover the first and use it to bridge between Red Wolf's curiosity and expansion and the Eater's urge to devour wisdom. Their totem could be some sort of spirit of economic collapses or ruin, which promotes the evolution and growth of civilization through the fall of momentary value. Knowledge is lost, bringing the wheel back to beginning in order to start anew. Cities fall, kingdoms collapse, societies shatter, knowledge is hidden- clearing the surface so other would grow and take their place. Sounds like a spirit of cycles in agriculture which has since evolved and grew to symbolize trade in general, like a spirit of forest fires, winters, droughts or similar disasters- something which ruins so others could grow. The Ministry seek to gain permanent, material power in the form of hoarding wealth. They block the wheel of seasons in one place, as they don't allow the resources to spread, money to flow and value to be distributed. They stop the cycle, keep growing and growing and by doing so stuck society in a single place. They don't allow the world to change, and don't allow wisdom to be lost. The wheel must move forward- and so their wealth must be eaten.

              That's at least what I can think about right now.


              My Homebrew Signature

              "And all our knowledge is, Ourselves to know"- An Essay on Man

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              • #8
                Originally posted by robothedino View Post
                Possessiveness, theft, and so forth are all concepts that operate within the propertarian paradigm- that things belong to people, not the world, and that one gains power by accumulating things, rather than sharing them.
                Property is different from commoditization. Especially in the suggestions I've put forward. Though I wasn't looking for an opposite so much as something that would still conflict with the idea of price tagging everything and making it readily available for trade (incidentally, this is something museums sometimes do, valuing their works and putting it up against those offered from private art galleries or other museums to make trades, though a museum would have spirits of art or history that might be offended at this practice). Theft and dominion don't allow for that on their own, and since we're going for a predatory spirit-born totem for a lodge about killing people I figured generosity would be something to avoid.


                Aside from the totem you have the usual killing of mages. The hardest part here would be actually locating Seers of the Ministry and the assorted humans and proximi who work in their cults. I'm not sure how you would do it, perhaps a rite, but having someway to eavesdrop on the mystery commands sent to them might give the lodge a legup. Perhaps they could have access to a soul stone attuned to the Chancellor, and thus a verge to their temple. Obviously a dangerous thing to have, especially as it works two-ways, but the Seers are nothing if not full of leaks and betrayers. I'm not sure how the supernal entities work, though. Presumably there is one for betrayal.

                One thing they might do is use hired killers, obviously obfuscated through enough degrees of contact that tracking sympathy would lead to others. Getting rid of people willing to put a price tag on life seems like it would be a side benefit of the job, as well as keeping the wealthier ministry members from having access to them.

                When it comes to killing the mages, fortunately the ministry is still a lesser one and the mages are for the most part normal. Go big, pull the city-destroying stuff that's unavoidable (IIRC the ministry likes their decadent yacht parties, crashing a plane into one or having it sucked to the bottom of the sea would go far), go sideways with extra large werewolves and magic-reflective spirits, or sneaky (probably the hardest one) with omen-obscuring rites, gifts and fetishes that don't give warning until you sneak into the target's place like Agent 47.
                Last edited by nofather; 09-29-2018, 01:37 PM.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Nicolas Milioni View Post
                  Let's talk about totems. Which spirit would want to help werwulf fight the Ministry?
                  It would have to be a mighty shadow noble , perhaps a spirit of death,since you can't take riches with you to the grave?
                  Death and Taxes.

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                  • #10
                    "You Are Past Due"


                    Malkydel: "And the Machine dictated; let there be adequate illumination."
                    Yossarian: "And lo, it was optimal."

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                    • #11
                      The Spirit of Christmas got pissed off at all the materialism and decided it was time for a sacred hunt.

                      Santa's not so jolly this year!

                      Look out Mammon, the suit's not
                      red for nothing.

                      ...
                      (Sorry... just watched Rocky 3.)

                      Seriously though, spirits of the land, asceticism, free trade, communism, enlightenment, or just about any animal spirit that gets offended by being treated as property might be pissed off enough to fight the Ministry on the grounds of the perversion of their natures. What you need is something that, when intersecting Werewolfness, targets them.

                      The part where I'm getting stuck is figuring out why a werewolf or spirit would limit themselves to a ministry. I mean, shouldn't this sacred hunt be a spiritual distinction and any focus on the Ministry be a strategic decision?.


                      Grump, grouse, and/or gripe.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by thenate View Post
                        The part where I'm getting stuck is figuring out why a werewolf or spirit would limit themselves to a ministry. I mean, shouldn't this sacred hunt be a spiritual distinction and any focus on the Ministry be a strategic decision?.
                        One of the things lodges offer is a focus of prey. So rather than hunting just humans or mages, you're hunting mages (and likely their retainers or allies) of a specific faction, specifically this Ministry. It wouldn't just be a group of werewolves who don't like the Ministry, it's a cult that is dedicated to killing them.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by nofather View Post

                          One of the things lodges offer is a focus of prey. So rather than hunting just humans or mages, you're hunting mages (and likely their retainers or allies) of a specific faction, specifically this Ministry. It wouldn't just be a group of werewolves who don't like the Ministry, it's a cult that is dedicated to killing them.
                          With my specific case in mind, The Lucky Seven who as at the core of this question has some real beef with Mammon(and Hegemony too, actually, but that's an aside). The Lodge is their response.


                          Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
                          The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
                          Male/neutral pronouns accepted, female pronouns enjoyed.

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                          • #14
                            Death to the bourgeoisie!,

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                            • #15
                              I don't have any good ideas, but I do have a request: please find a way to name three of the Seven "Bluebell", "Jessie", and "Pincher". I have no idea how those names can be associated with werewolves, but that's my request. :P

                              I would also point out that Paris is actually a fairly major city in the history of socialism.


                              I call the Integrity-analogue the "subjective stat".
                              An explanation how to use Social Manuevering.
                              Guanxi Explanations: 1, 2, 3.

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