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  • #16
    It sounds like American English linguistic fanboys.


    Kelly R.S. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
    The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
    Feminine pronouns, please.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
      It sounds like American English linguistic fanboys.
      I imagine some Werewolf elders might have a similar view on an Uremehir creole and try to clamp down on it. Part of the loss of Irish Gaelic being spoken in the United States was due to persecution for its use; I can imagine some Uratha purists might see a hypothetical FT-English creole as "the language of the Herd", or something else disparaging. Especially amongst the Pure.


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      • #18
        Originally posted by Sikla Alkis View Post

        I imagine some Werewolf elders might have a similar view on an Uremehir creole and try to clamp down on it. Part of the loss of Irish Gaelic being spoken in the United States was due to persecution for its use; I can imagine some Uratha purists might see a hypothetical FT-English creole as "the language of the Herd", or something else disparaging. Especially amongst the Pure.
        That's very true, and could lead to an interesting storyline in fact. Fights over linguistic control have accompanied ever single argument, from a bar room discussion to wars(hell, you can see a lot of it in any discussion about what constitutes political correctness, and how much PC language is good and helpful). The difference here is that the root language is a spiritual universal(but not necessarily higher) and there is a truer 'pollution' of the base language(hell, any human language is dirty in this sense), so the dichotomy has some sharpness and metaphysical weight.


        Kelly R.S. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
        The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
        Feminine pronouns, please.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
          The difference here is that the root language is a spiritual universal(but not necessarily higher) and there is a truer 'pollution' of the base language(hell, any human language is dirty in this sense), so the dichotomy has some sharpness and metaphysical weight.
          I feel it's worth pointing out that First Tongue has at least enough dialects that there's a marginal distinction between the language as spoken by spirits and the language as spoken by werewolves.


          Resident Lore-Hound
          Currently Consuming: Demon: the Descent 1e

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          • #20
            I have no objection to Summerian, but I'd have prefered they use a language with a bit more thematic ties werewolves. Ancient Summer is famous for being the first civilization, and the first cities. Neither are concepts I associate with Werewolf.


            “There are no rules. Only Principles and natural laws.” - Promethius
            My Homebrew no longer fits in a signature, you can find an index of it here.
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            • #21
              Originally posted by Satchel View Post
              I feel it's worth pointing out that First Tongue has at least enough dialects that there's a marginal distinction between the language as spoken by spirits and the language as spoken by werewolves.
              True, but the people who would make an argument about certain werewolf dialects would certainly give a rip about a sense of linguistic purity.
              Originally posted by The Kings Raven View Post
              I have no objection to Summerian, but I'd have prefered they use a language with a bit more thematic ties werewolves. Ancient Summer is famous for being the first civilization, and the first cities. Neither are concepts I associate with Werewolf.
              Humans picked up language from somewhere, and shamans were the first storytellers-it's not a stretch to assume that the spiritually inclined were the first to pick up language in an evolved sense. It makes sense that the earliest known language would also be the one that showed the least deviation from the spiritual tongue.
              Last edited by ArcaneArts; 05-07-2014, 12:39 PM.


              Kelly R.S. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
              The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
              Feminine pronouns, please.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by The Kings Raven View Post
                I have no objection to Summerian, but I'd have prefered they use a language with a bit more thematic ties werewolves. Ancient Summer is famous for being the first civilization, and the first cities. Neither are concepts I associate with Werewolf.
                An explanation for the tie can be found in the Forsaken Chronicler's Guide. Long story short, werewolves helped establish part of Sumer and were considered living gods.

                Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                I feel it's worth pointing out that First Tongue has at least enough dialects that there's a marginal distinction between the language as spoken by spirits and the language as spoken by werewolves.
                Do you have book pages or at least books that state that? I remember seeing it somewhere now that you've jogged my memory, but for the life of me, I can't recall the book.

                Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
                That's very true, and could lead to an interesting storyline in fact. Fights over linguistic control have accompanied ever single argument, from a bar room discussion to wars(hell, you can see a lot of it in any discussion about what constitutes political correctness, and how much PC language is good and helpful). The difference here is that the root language is a spiritual universal(but not necessarily higher) and there is a truer 'pollution' of the base language(hell, any human language is dirty in this sense), so the dichotomy has some sharpness and metaphysical weight.
                There's also a hint of racial prejudice I haven't noticed before in the Uratha origin story. Another definition for the word "ur", this time in English, is "ancient" or "old". The name "Urfarah" not only can mean "Father Wolf", but his name could also mean "Ancient Father" or "Oldest Father". Not only could he apply to being the oldest werewolf-esque spirit around, the name, to some, might also suggest that he is the oldest of the spirits to ever sire a brood like the Uratha, a name which roughly can mean "oldest that changes" according to the translating I've been doing from First Tongue to English.

                In short: "we're superior because we were here first". Something a spirit might very well use in an argument against a werewolf, and what werewolves might use amongst each other. Again, this especially could apply to the Pure.

                Edit: Sorry Arc, missed your post:

                Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
                True, but the people who would make an argument about certain werewolf dialects would certainly give a rip about a sense of linguistic purity.

                Humans picked up language from somewhere, and shamans were the first storytellers-it's not a stretch to assume that the spiritually inclined were the first to pick up language in an evolved sense. It makes sense that the earliest known language would also be the one that showed the least deviation from the spiritual tongue.
                You should check out the idea of Proto-Human Language, Arc: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Human_language

                In the WoD, I can completely see the idea of spirits being the ones to have invented language in the first place and passed it down. It's also not much of a stretch to imagine they could have been responsible for all human languages, given how sound and grammatical changes can happen to almost anything.
                Last edited by Sikla Alkis; 05-07-2014, 12:56 PM.


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                • #23
                  Oh no! It's the Sneeches! Who had the Belly Star first!?!


                  - If you must be ridiculous, I must ridicule you.
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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Sikla Alkis View Post
                    Do you have book pages or at least books that state that? I remember seeing it somewhere now that you've jogged my memory, but for the life of me, I can't recall the book.
                    Page 42 of the corebook, second column, first complete paragraph.


                    Resident Lore-Hound
                    Currently Consuming: Demon: the Descent 1e

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Papa Bear View Post
                      Permission to use that quote for a snarky Cahalith?

                      Edit: Missed Satchel's post.

                      Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                      Page 42 of the corebook, second column, first complete paragraph.
                      Thanks for the reference. Man, I haven't cracked open that book in a while. @_@


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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Sikla Alkis View Post
                        You should check out the idea of Proto-Human Language, Arc: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Human_language

                        In the WoD, I can completely see the idea of spirits being the ones to have invented language in the first place and passed it down. It's also not much of a stretch to imagine they could have been responsible for all human languages, given how sound and grammatical changes can happen to almost anything.
                        As Mage ST I have other intersting observations - if Proto-Human is truely first language, and it was passed by Spirits, then would it be also High Speech of Atlantis? We know that High Speech is set of vowels and accents putted on normal tounge. Would it possible those sylabs would be this onomatopeic language given huamnity by "gods" ( i.e. Spirits)?


                        My stuff for Realms of Pugmire, Scion 2E, CoD Contagion, Dark Eras, VtR 2E, WtF 2E, MtAw 2E, MtC 2E & BtP
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                        • #27
                          The only other language I could see thematically fitting as the basis of the First Tongue other than Sumerian would be Old High German, a particularly harsh, primal-sounding language. Then again, I like the Sumerian.

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                          • #28
                            No. Atlantean is it's own language, and like everything else Atlantean, it's mostly gone from the world with Atlantis being wiped from reality. There's no corollary to it.

                            High Speech and First Tongue are different languages, and spirits don't know what the hell mages are babbling on about.


                            Kelly R.S. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
                            The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
                            Feminine pronouns, please.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post

                              As Mage ST I have other intersting observations - if Proto-Human is truely first language, and it was passed by Spirits, then would it be also High Speech of Atlantis? We know that High Speech is set of vowels and accents putted on normal tounge. Would it possible those sylabs would be this onomatopeic language given huamnity by "gods" ( i.e. Spirits)?
                              No - I think that Atlantis formed their own speech to basically 'tame' magic and stamp their civilisation on the Supernal. That, I feel, fits better with the hubristic narrative of Atlantis (assuming, of course, a literal interpretation of the Atlantis mythology)

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Christian A View Post
                                The only other language I could see thematically fitting as the basis of the First Tongue other than Sumerian would be Old High German, a particularly harsh, primal-sounding language.
                                I would love to see basics of it as First Tongue as alternative, becuase I would love to run my Scandinavian game.


                                My stuff for Realms of Pugmire, Scion 2E, CoD Contagion, Dark Eras, VtR 2E, WtF 2E, MtAw 2E, MtC 2E & BtP
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                                LGBT+ in CoD games

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