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Breaking rules to balance Harmony

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  • #16
    Originally posted by nofather View Post
    At a point, leading the sacred hunt is a breaking point, and refusing to join it always is, and refusing altogether is going to cause series of breaks as you hit the limit of your primal urge. Killing a human is a Breaking Point towards Spirit. Killing 5 humans (the size of an average hunter cell) is 5 Breaking Points. It takes dedication and luck (which is easier represented by ST fiat) to be able to just sit at one Harmony.
    Oh, missed that in corebook reading. So even invoking Sacred Hunt for the pack is Harmony Breaking Point? ( Checking the Harmony section... ) Oh, it's Breaking Point only on Harmony 8+ - so this is why it did not shown in my games. Players are doing very imbalance stuff quickly, and strife to balance of Harmony. Well, most of them, as one is around Harmony 4 and having Ban already on him. ( Iron Masters Ithauer, of course. )


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    • #17
      Originally posted by nofather View Post
      Killing 5 humans (the size of an average hunter cell) is 5 Breaking Points. It takes dedication and luck (which is easier represented by ST fiat) to be able to just sit at one Harmony.
      that is an excellent point. Furthermore, if a werewolf goes into Kuruth and in a rage and
      kills 20 humans, then technically that would be 20 breaking points towards Spirit, probably more than enough to guarantee he becomes Zir.
      Last edited by maryshelly; 05-03-2020, 07:06 PM.

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      • #18
        Honestly I'd rule that a single massacre is just one breaking point at an extremely high penalty.
        You don't want a player to just straight up become unplayable after one bad roll.

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        • #19
          …Y'all remember that werewolves don't know what's going on while they're in Death Rage and zi'ir who weren't Ghost Wolf require multiple dramatic failures, right?


          Resident Lore-Hound
          Currently Consuming: Hunter: the Vigil 1e

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          • #20
            This is a great thread. Another question is when breaking points go in opposite directions. Let's say a werewolf engages in eating Flesh which is a breaking point towards Spirit, it it is a violation of the oath of the moon which is a breaking point towards towards Flesh. Is that one breaking point, or two breaking points that go in opposite directions?

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            • #21
              Originally posted by maryshelly View Post
              This is a great thread. Another question is when breaking points go in opposite directions. Let's say a werewolf engages in eating Flesh which is a breaking point towards Spirit, it it is a violation of the oath of the moon which is a breaking point towards towards Flesh. Is that one breaking point, or two breaking points that go in opposite directions?
              Two breaking points in opposite directions. The penalties involved make the rolls asymmetrical in most cases, and the fact remains that eating human or wolf flesh for Essence destabilizes a werewolf.


              Resident Lore-Hound
              Currently Consuming: Hunter: the Vigil 1e

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                Two breaking points in opposite directions. The penalties involved make the rolls asymmetrical in most cases, and the fact remains that eating human or wolf flesh for Essence destabilizes a werewolf.
                This is where things get a bit strange. So, if a werewolf is perfectly balanced at 5, the blessed state for werewolves, he could commit a major violation, lets say eating flesh in the frenzy of Kuruth, which would be 2 violations. One for eating flesh and one for breaking the oath of the moon. But, because they are going in opposite directions he could fail both of them and still be exactly where he started. It is literally a case of 2 wrongs making a right. This part is a bit confusing. I can only think that is arrests a descent into madness by balancing a werewolf between his 2 halves, but it just means that he needs to commit violations in order to stay balanced.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by maryshelly View Post
                  This is where things get a bit strange. So, if a werewolf is perfectly balanced at 5, the blessed state for werewolves, he could commit a major violation, lets say eating flesh in the frenzy of Kuruth, which would be 2 violations. One for eating flesh and one for breaking the oath of the moon. But, because they are going in opposite directions he could fail both of them and still be exactly where he started. It is literally a case of 2 wrongs making a right. This part is a bit confusing. I can only think that is arrests a descent into madness by balancing a werewolf between his 2 halves, but it just means that he needs to commit violations in order to stay balanced.
                  There is more to the matter. Generally you don't just 'eat flesh' and that's it, especially in Kuruth. Killing a human is also a Breaking Point. Violating the Oath of the Moon is a breaking point with a penalty of -2, as is hunting wolves and humans for flesh. But if you're not hunting, you've just gone wild, you might hit the -3 penalty for eating flesh for Essence.

                  Also regarding being unable to witness the breaks, while in Kuruth you aren't usually making conscious rational decisions, but 'After his time in Basu-Im is up, he collapses into Hishu. He
                  has no memory of what happened. He will likely suffer a breaking point toward Spirit if he learns the terrible things he did.'

                  Kuruth is a very chaotic time and not really the best moment to judge for when a werewolf maintains their Harmony, especially considering it's much harder to fall into Kuruth when you're at 5 Harmony, as well as easier to deal with the repercussions. At Harmony 5 you have 15 minutes to calm down or find yourself in a spot not full of humans, while at Harmony 7 you only have one minute.

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                  • #24
                    All excellent points. There are a few other points that I am curious about.

                    It seems that maintaining the oath adds a lot of handicaps to a werewolf who wants to maintain balance. For example, the core book gives an example of a Rahu Blood Talon who wants to keep the oath and punish oath breakers. The paradox is that, he is required to hunt werewolves (like Pure), but cannot kill them because that would violate the oath. Does that mean he becomes like Batman where he cannot kill the Joker, but can only arrest the Joker (while the Joker is free to kill Batman and has tried many times).

                    Or for example, using silver to kill a werewolf (I guess technically 3 violations at once, 1/ killing a werewolf, 2/ using silver to do it, and 3/ breaking the oath). If a Pure predator King is in death rage, trying to kill it not using silver (or biting him) is tricky, trying to subdue him without killing him is probably going to be very tricky.

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                    • #25
                      Is it intended that one really bad harmony break is meant to be spread out over multiple rolls? That genuinely doesn't feel right to me.

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                      • #26
                        In those situations, I run with only one roll with biggest penalty, toward side with this biggest penalty. So eating human or wolf flesh is Breaking Point toward Spirit with penalty -3, simple.
                        Last edited by wyrdhamster; 05-13-2020, 05:53 PM.


                        My stuff for Realms of Pugmire, Scion 2E, CoD Contagion, Dark Eras, VtR 2E, WtF 2E, MtAw 2E, MtC 2E & BtP
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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by maryshelly View Post
                          All excellent points. There are a few other points that I am curious about.

                          It seems that maintaining the oath adds a lot of handicaps to a werewolf who wants to maintain balance. For example, the core book gives an example of a Rahu Blood Talon who wants to keep the oath and punish oath breakers. The paradox is that, he is required to hunt werewolves (like Pure), but cannot kill them because that would violate the oath. Does that mean he becomes like Batman where he cannot kill the Joker, but can only arrest the Joker (while the Joker is free to kill Batman and has tried many times).
                          I don't know where this specific example is. But if you look at the Oath section it does point out that, 'Each tribe (indeed, each pack) places greater importance on some of the laws than it does the others. The added significance is in regard to tribe’s favored prey and its view of a proper world. Some werewolves pay only lip service to one tenet. The more devout take every law as sacred. In the end, not even her packmates can determine how a werewolf approaches the Oath; it is a decision she must make for herself.'

                          To use your example, though, Batman does not uphold every single law there is, and he demonstrably breaks the law through what he's doing. His rule is about stopping killing. In a werewolf perspective he places a big emphasis on that one part of the Oath. And yes, they could be like that (I know from experience it can lead to more horrific things than death). But they can also go another way. Just like societies have made an exception for things like 'war' a Uratha could hold that the 'murder' in 'The People do not murder the People' doesn't count for big battles, or wars, or self defense. Especially for a Blood Talon, that providing the other werewolf has 'started it' or otherwise kicked off a battle, the Uratha is free to kill them. Another, more focused on the Oath breaking, might have the mindset that, if a werewolf breaks the oaths, they are saying they don't want to be one of the People anymore, and so are free to be the prey.

                          While the Batman v Joker prospect is an angle you can take, it's not one forced on you.

                          Or for example, using silver to kill a werewolf (I guess technically 3 violations at once, 1/ killing a werewolf, 2/ using silver to do it, and 3/ breaking the oath). If a Pure predator King is in death rage, trying to kill it not using silver (or biting him) is tricky, trying to subdue him without killing him is probably going to be very tricky.
                          The specific Harmony violations involved with biting are 'Hunting humans or wolves for food,' and 'Eating human or wolf flesh for Essence.' If you are just trying to kill them, you are not hunting them for food, and I've judged on the side of 'it's not for Essence' in regards to biting to do aggravated damage, though that's just my choice.

                          All that said, the Oath is not meant to handcap the players the way you seem to be approaching it. The object of the game is not to reach Harmony 5, then never move. Breaking an Oath, even all the Oaths, does not mean game over. Individual werewolves, just like individual players, choose what's important for them. And if you want to be a sort of moral paragon of the Uratha (just as valid as wanting to be a Bale Hound), then you are setting the handicaps and drawbacks yourself and should plan accordingly. For instance, not having silver weapons would be a good idea, as well as having abilities to shut down Kuruth like an Elodoth's auspice ability, simply trying to calm them down, or going into Basu-Im yourself.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by nofather View Post

                            I don't know where this specific example is.
                            page 30 of the core book. The paragraph which is Oath-keeper

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by nofather View Post
                              The specific Harmony violations involved with biting are 'Hunting humans or wolves for food,' and 'Eating human or wolf flesh for Essence.' If you are just trying to kill them, you are not hunting them for food, and I've judged on the side of 'it's not for Essence' in regards to biting to do aggravated damage, though that's just my choice.
                              I respect your choice. Intent as written is that biting for aggravated is a breaking point - you’re chewing down your enemy’s meat, making a definite choice to do so. Bonus is that you’ll get some Essence as well as causing them damage. Fights can turn quickly because of this, or leave on combatant dead and the other mortally wounded, and such choices are hitting your Harmony.


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                              • #30
                                In case someone's interested, I searched the Core book for all "breaking point towards X" and found these, besides the list next to Harmony on page 104:

                                Spirit

                                WtF 131
                                Nature
                                BEAST RIDE (WISDOM)
                                Should the animal be killed while she is riding, she is ejected back to her own body and treats it as a breaking point towards Spirit.

                                WtF 135
                                Technology
                                IRON SLAVE (WISDOM)
                                Should the vehicle or machine be destroyed while the Uratha is riding it, she is ejected back into her own body and treats it as a breaking point towards Spirit.

                                WtF 141
                                Rite
                                SACRED HUNT (••)
                                If the Uratha bring down a spirit that is the prey of this rite, they may divide its remaining Essence amongst themselves as they see fit; this can be used to destroy a spirit by draining all its Essence and discorporating it, but doing so is usually a breaking point toward Spirit and is seen as disrespectful if done without good reason.

                                WtF 144
                                Rite
                                TOTEMIC EMPOWERMENT
                                Being empowered by the totem is a breaking point toward Spirit for an Uratha, and an Integrity breaking point for a human or Wolf-Blooded.

                                Flesh

                                WtF 108
                                SELF-CONTROL (••) Prerequisites: Resolve ••••
                                Effect: Your character can stave off her spirit nature. When compelled to shift in a stressful situation due to low Harmony (see p. 96), you may spend a point of Willpower to allow her to remain in her current form for the scene. Doing so is a breaking point toward Flesh.

                                WtF 138
                                Change
                                THE FATHER’S FORM (PURITY)
                                Further, taking Gauru form and not engaging in combat goes against Father Wolf’s ancient expectations; shifting to another form to end this Facet is a breaking point towards Flesh.

                                WtF 165
                                FORCING DOORS
                                To make things easier for the persuading character, he can apply Hard Leverage — a catch-all euphemism for threats, intimidation, drugging, blackmail, and other heavy-handed forms of coercion. If the persuader uses a form of Hard Leverage, it’s a breaking point towards Flesh.


                                Last edited by YayDee; 05-30-2020, 12:24 PM.

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