Weaponizing Death Rage

[maryshelly]

Kuruth is one of those things that, paradoxically, look like a blessing and a curse in the main book. On one hand it is considered a weakness because of it's destructive potential...but also a tool because of it's destructive potential. Throughout the book there are examples of trying to avoid it, while other things suggest it like a tool, like a werewolf Blood affinity can help you replenish Willpower if you use it and the Pack suggests that using it in a hunt can be considered getting into your werewolf nature.

I ought to replicate this question on the Vampire and Promethean forums as Frenzy and Torment seem to have similar systems.

How can this be used from both angles? Both as a tool for the werewolf as well as for their enemies? Lets explore both cases

1/ USED BY THE PACK AS A WEAPON A Rahu decides to go into a Death Rage to destroy their enemies, the Half moon hides behind a building and then makes the Rahu go into a death rage (these were suggested in the main book). One rite makes the totem spirit go into a death rage. What would be the most cunning use? Would it be to have the pack get away from the raging werewolf, wait for the carnage to finish and then clean up the mess? What tactics would work best for this?

2/ USED AGAINST THE PACK AS A WEAPON: A rage gift makes an enemy werewolf frenzy. A Idigam dread power makes the length of Kuruth much longer, The Pure goad the Forsaken to Death Rage in their territory (again, examples from the main book). This seems tricky since purposefully making an enemy werewolf (and potentially their whole pack) a raging maelstrom of destruction. Would the smart tactic be to just get them to frenzy, get the hell out, and then come back when the frenzy ends and the Uratha collapses from exhaustion? Would fighting it be a wise move or really dumb? How would it benefit an enemy to make a Werewolf enter a super destructive form at a cost of their rational thinking?

[Heroofthemists]

1. My biggest problem with these tactics is the risk associated with them. Sure you can Death Rage, but every pack member who is within perception distance also gets triggered, causing them to attempt to resists, if one of them fails or, worse, the Elodoth fails you are in for a bad time. Not only that, but once you are in death rage you cannot shift tactics to meet the prey. You are a one minded destructive menace. You won't activate some of your more out of the box gifts, instead only the instinctual ones meant for 'rip and tear'. It's a poor choice in most situations. It can be useful in the face of a overwhelming foe who has no intent of running however. Gauru regeneration is beyond useful, and extending it for the entire fight can't be underestimated.

2. Now this is a favorite tactic of mine as a PC or NPC. A character with cunning, the rage gift, and a nice bit of stealth can be a nightmare in a enemy packs territory. While less useful while in your own territory, the impact of causing a werewolf to rage around his mortal family while they sit down to dinner cannot be underestimated. I had a NPC pack of Fire Touched whose leader was built around manipulating people and was extremely cunning. He caused a PC to rage around their touchstone and dug up enough information on another to set the FBI on their trail for crimes committed by the PC in relation to their first change.

[maryshelly]

Thanks for getting this discussion rolling. The way I see it, Kuruth is like high explosives, useful if lobbed at your enemies but could potentially blow up your face (more common). The destructive potential can go both ways.

1. In the first instance, it would be wise to use it from a distance. The aforementioned scenario where the pack gets far from the Rahu while the Elodoth activates his rage, it might work if the rest of the pack can keep their distance and come back when the carnage is finished. But even in an "ideal" scenario where the Rahu is ok with it, the pack is far, and it is taking place in a sewer with only Beshulu for company, things usually go wrong (and of course a wily storyteller can let her imagination run for ways to make even the most perfectly thought out plan backfire under the circumstances). Still, it might very well cause enough damage so that the rest of the pack can come in after the damage is done and clean up the mess.

2. In the other scenario, where to begin if you can make an enemy werewolf rage...

The source book Territories had a really good explanation about the need to find territory. Since werewolves live a very dangerous existence, both from the material world and the spirit world, and that spirits can attack them anywhere and at any time, the best way to survive is to claim territory and tend to the physical and spiritual world to keep all threats under control. This may take years of work and is always a work in progress. Kuruth can destroy this in a flash. Rage can lead to dead humans, authorities coming down on the pack, devastated communities, negative spirits, etc. Suddenly the territory is ruined and the pack might have to either start over or leave entirely which can cause problems (such as invading someone else's territory)

The oath of the Moon is designed to keep werewolves from falling to madness, which can also be undone in a frenzy of Kuruth. Like a recovering alcoholic with a 25 year sobriety medallion who goes on a drinking binge, a werewolf who is trying to uphold the oath suddenly wakes up from a blackout to find human flesh in his mouth or a dead packmate at his feet. Plus, the Rahu with a high purity might decide that this oathbreaker is suddenly prey...

Kuruth has a timer, and when that timer is done the Uratha collapses in human form, which is probably not a smart idea after causing a cyclone of destruction. Hopefully all of your enemies are dead...but what if one Pure regenerated his damage, or a spirit suddenly materializes, or you missed one Beshulu shard, or a human comes to investigate, or a spirit suddenly claims something closeby...the werewolf is suddenly weak as a sleeping kitten...

...and the Pure know that the Forsaken have a timer, because they have one too. A Pure pack can goad a Forsaken into Kuruth, make a break for it, and come back when the rage is finished. If the whole pack flew into a rage now you have a whole pack that just collapsed from exhaustion

Finally...Even a Raging werewolf can fall in battle. Lets say that a Werewolf pack tries the tactic mentioned above where they let one pack member rage and then stage a retreat hoping that their packmate will wipe out their enemies. A pack of enemy Pure can dog pile that werewolf (and cause aggravated damage by eating it's essence) and suddenly it is dead, and its pack is less one member. There are probably Predator Kings so tough that they can do the job singlehandedly just to show how strong they are.

[Scarlet Witch]

1. My biggest problem with these tactics is the risk associated with them. Sure you can Death Rage, but every pack member who is within perception distance also gets triggered, causing them to attempt to resists, if one of them fails or, worse, the Elodoth fails you are in for a bad time. Not only that, but once you are in death rage you cannot shift tactics to meet the prey. You are a one minded destructive menace. You won't activate some of your more out of the box gifts, instead only the instinctual ones meant for 'rip and tear'. It's a poor choice in most situations. It can be useful in the face of a overwhelming foe who has no intent of running however. Gauru regeneration is beyond useful, and extending it for the entire fight can't be underestimated.

2. Now this is a favorite tactic of mine as a PC or NPC. A character with cunning, the rage gift, and a nice bit of stealth can be a nightmare in a enemy packs territory. While less useful while in your own territory, the impact of causing a werewolf to rage around his mortal family while they sit down to dinner cannot be underestimated. I had a NPC pack of Fire Touched whose leader was built around manipulating people and was extremely cunning. He caused a PC to rage around their touchstone and dug up enough information on another to set the FBI on their trail for crimes committed by the PC in relation to their first change.

May I ask where in the 2E book it mentions that seeing a packmate go into kuruth triggers death rage in the other packmates? I'd heard it but never found it myself, Id appreciate the help!

[Tessie]

May I ask where in the 2E book it mentions that seeing a packmate go into kuruth triggers death rage in the other packmates? I'd heard it but never found it myself, Id appreciate the help!

"When an Uratha falls to Kuruth, the fire of the hunt rouses his packmates to a frenzy as well. Werewolf packmates within 10 yards who can see or smell the raging werewolf fall into Basu-Im after a turn. Each packmate can attempt to resist with a Resolve + Composure roll, needing one success per character in the scene currently in Kuruth — but he must make this roll every time a packmate falls into Basu-Im."

Page 103, but in the regular text at the bottom instead of the Kuruth Trigger text box.

[Malus]

Corebook, page 103

When an Uratha falls to Kuruth, the fire of the hunt rouses his packmates to a frenzy as well. Werewolf packmates within 10 yards who can see or smell the raging werewolf fall into Basu-Im after a turn. Each packmate can attempt to resist with a Resolve + Composure roll, needing one success per character in the scene currently in Kuruth — but he must make this roll every time a packmate falls into Basu-Im

The merit Directed Rage makes it very, very hard to hamper a pack with their Kuruth; nevermind if they had access to Chain Rage too.

[Paradim]

Corebook, page 103



The merit Directed Rage makes it very, very hard to hamper a pack with their Kuruth; nevermind if they had access to Chain Rage too.

What books are Directed Rage and Chain Rage in?

[nofather]

What books are Directed Rage and Chain Rage in?

Chain Rage is in the core, its the first rite. Directed Rage is in the Pack, p30.

[Paradim]

Chain Rage is in the core, its the first rite. Directed Rage is in the Pack, p30.

Thank you ^.^