Siskur Dah as Pack Rite?

[jmkoontz1980]

I am seriously thinking about houseruling Sacred hunt / Siskur Dah as a Pack Rite for my upcoming crossover Chronicle. The reason for this would be so that non-Uratha pack members can gain the benefits of any Siskur Dah called by the wolves. Particularly the beats gained from Exceptional Successes against the Prey so that they remain on a more even footing with the wolves with regards to XP gain and character advancement, but also having access to the other benefits of the rite would also be helpful in successfully completing the Hunt.

What I'm curious about is whether anyone else has tried this, and what, if any, unintended consequences it had - for good or ill. I can't think of anything too game-breaking, but I also don't know WtF as well as some, so not sure if there's any other rules interactions I should be aware of before making this call.

Thanks in advance,

[Satchel]

The biggest problem I can point out about this?

Making it a Pack Rite doesn't actually change a single thing about how it works besides no longer requiring a werewolf ritemaster and preventing werewolves from different packs from collaborating on the same Sacred Hunt — as-written, the effect is "every participating werewolf gains the Siskur-Dah Condition" and Pack Rites explicitly require all participants to be from the same pack.

You'd have better luck coming up with a Merit that allows a character who's part of a werewolf pack to count as a werewolf for the purposes of Sacred Hunt, frankly.

[ArcaneArts]

The biggest problem I can point out about this?

Making it a Pack Rite doesn't actually change a single thing about how it works besides no longer requiring a werewolf ritemaster and preventing werewolves from different packs from collaborating on the same Sacred Hunt — as-written, the effect is "every participating werewolf gains the Siskur-Dah Condition" and Pack Rites explicitly require all participants to be from the same pack.

You'd have better luck coming up with a Merit that allows a character who's part of a werewolf pack to count as a werewolf for the purposes of Sacred Hunt, frankly.

Which, hey, The Pack has.

[nofather]

Particularly the beats gained from Exceptional Successes against the Prey so that they remain on a more even footing with the wolves with regards to XP gain and character advancement, but also having access to the other benefits of the rite would also be helpful in successfully completing the Hunt.

Most people get around Exp issues by adding group beats (to the point that I believe as of Geist they have become the standard, rather than an optional rule). Werewolves aren't the only ones who gain beats from special circumstances, after all. All beats gained in a session are gathered into a pool, then given out equally to each player. This way beats from the special circumstances of different gamelines, including mortal, don't lead anyone to being noticably inequal in footing, while simultaneously letting someone still play out their own benefits knowing that in the end it adds to their advancement. Rather than, say, getting rid of one groups benefits.

[jmkoontz1980]

The biggest problem I can point out about this?

Making it a Pack Rite doesn't actually change a single thing about how it works besides no longer requiring a werewolf ritemaster and preventing werewolves from different packs from collaborating on the same Sacred Hunt — as-written, the effect is "every participating werewolf gains the Siskur-Dah Condition" and Pack Rites explicitly require all participants to be from the same pack.

You'd have better luck coming up with a Merit that allows a character who's part of a werewolf pack to count as a werewolf for the purposes of Sacred Hunt, frankly.

But don't Wolf Rites require that everyone participating in the Rite actually know the rite (and thus have to be a wolf) or is that just for anyone that wants to use Teamwork to aid in the die rolls for the Rite - but other pack members can still participate, just not from a mechanical sense?

[Satchel]

But don't Wolf Rites require that everyone participating in the Rite actually know the rite (and thus have to be a wolf)

That would be nonsensical, given that a not-insubstantial chunk of discourse on these forums has concerned the fact that werewolves receive two free dots of Rites specifically so that every character has the option of knowing Sacred Hunt themselves but aren't required to spend them in that fashion — that would be a decision that only worked for the sake of a handicap if rites required every participant to know it, especially given that the symbolic correspondences of a ritual explicitly only need to be known to the ritemaster.

or is that just for anyone that wants to use Teamwork to aid in the die rolls for the Rite - but other pack members can still participate, just not from a mechanical sense?

That is the basic description of how rites work, yes — just because they're not adding dice to the ritemaster's roll doesn't mean the other participants aren't facilitating the rite by serving as the subjects of its effects or providing necessary symbolism to stave off automatic dramatic failure.

[wyrdhamster]

Re-iterating my post from two years ago, on the similar topic:

Official rules imply that NO, Siskur-Dah Condition does not goes to every participant, only to werewolves. Which is strange, as Wolf-Blooded are assume to be part of Tribes and gone on Hunts, from setting perspective ( like material in The Pack book ).

Official rules of Sacred Hunt Rite:

( Rules for Sacred Hunt Rite )

The only way I can see to work for the majority of 'hunting party' it is that 'werewolf' means both Uratha and Wolf-Blooded here. Which would be breaking rules of Wolf Rites that state they only work for Uratha.

[Bunyip]

I am seriously thinking about houseruling Sacred hunt / Siskur Dah as a Pack Rite for my upcoming crossover Chronicle. The reason for this would be so that non-Uratha pack members can gain the benefits of any Siskur Dah called by the wolves. Particularly the beats gained from Exceptional Successes against the Prey so that they remain on a more even footing with the wolves with regards to XP gain and character advancement, but also having access to the other benefits of the rite would also be helpful in successfully completing the Hunt.

There are a few ways you can run with this. What works best depends on what your main objectives are. If the main focus is Beats, just fudge the rules slightly so that non-werewolves don’t get the Siskur-Dah hunt benefits but do gain the Beat benefit.

The Sacred Hunt rite is meant for werewolves. (With a few exceptions and edge cases, as noted by the merits in The Pack.) The rest of the pack contributes to the hunt but aren’t the core of it like the Uratha. And as mentioned in an earlier post, it’s not a great idea to change it to a Pack rite because then you’re cutting the major hunts that call upon Uratha from across many packs, all joining their forces to enact a massive Sacred Hunt and benefit.

Part of the reason the Siskur-Dah is limited to Uratha is to keep the hunt focused and dangerous. Packs can be big in 2E, you can have half a dozen (or more) Uratha, a couple dozen Wolf-Blooded, and dozens or hundreds of humans. (Depends on how much work you want to do.) The challenge of the prey when you have dozens of armed people bearing down on it is a lot less. (And we should mention ‘The Herd Must Not Know’ - it’s hard to keep humans from discovering your presence if you’ve got a bunch of them taking part in secret werewolf magic and seeing all sorts of crazy stuff on the hunt.)

If you want everyone covered by the Siskur-Dah hunt benefit, that will have an impact on the game. It may help your pack, but it’s got the potential to hurt them a whole lot more. And much of the time it’s not a great help to non-werewolves without. And some of the benefits are useless to limited to non-Uratha. Being able to touch and strike ephemeral entities might sound good, but it’s less useful when your natural weapons are fists, and you still can’t see the opponent. Choosing what Lunacy Condition you inflict is pointless when you don’t inflict Lunacy.

When I say beware of how this might hurt your pack - facing off against the Pure is hard enough when a group of 5-6 of them can empower the spirits against you, track down and force your family to betray you, or turn nature against you. Fire-Touched get organised. Picture that with a half dozen Pure supported by a hundred or more of their faith-driven followers against you. How long do you think the pack will last?

If you’re looking to extend the Siskur-Dah effect to other supernaturals for your mixed game, that could work, but again what effects does it impart and are they actually necessary? The other creatures all have their ways of participating in and assisting the hunt. Give them access to the Beat generation and that should be alright.

Edit: Last thing that I forgot. Werewolves can participate in Wolf Rites to gain the benefit without knowing the rite. They just don’t add to the mechanical performance of the rite. Otherwise, everyone would have to take Sacred Hunt, which wasn’t the intent.

[jmkoontz1980]

Edit: Last thing that I forgot. Werewolves can participate in Wolf Rites to gain the benefit without knowing the rite. They just don’t add to the mechanical performance of the rite. Otherwise, everyone would have to take Sacred Hunt, which wasn’t the intent.

All very good points - and the reason I wanted to ask, here, rather than just doing it - some very specific unintended consequences involved that I had not thought about as yet. The above quoted portion (that Satchel also clarified) is the crux of what I needed to, though. I have been misunderstanding the intent of the brief discussion of Pack rites vs Wolf rites at the beginning of the Rites section of the book particularly where the definition of "participation" is concerned.

Thanks, for the informative breakdown of ideas, there.