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Yawatha - the Werejaguars

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  • #16
    Malus So, your objections to the idea come from posts from development that never made it into 2nd edition and that some of the facets don't fit the concept the OP is working on?

    I think the solution is pretty simple; don't use it in your game then. Personally, I think it's pretty creative and will be incorporating portions of it in the game I am running. I really like it and definitely encourage the OP to post more.

    I just edited this part in: Even if it were canon that werewolves are the only ones with Shadow Gifts, since when have people playing with the CofD ever been restricted by canon if they felt like changing aspects of their game world? The very fact that each world in each game can be unique is one of the huge selling points of CofD to me.
    Last edited by Vedic; 07-26-2019, 06:25 PM.

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    • #17
      Thank you for the sources. I missed that when reading through those posts. I do think that other shapeshifters who are similar to werewolves (as opposed to, say, skinchangers, Claimed, Beast Changelings, and others) should be a thing, many of them have powers in folklore and myth that should be reflected in powers like Gifts, and that Wolf/Shadow Gifts as they are fulfill the purpose.

      However, I agree with your point that Shadow Gift Facets revolving around a pack don't thematically fit what I'm doing with the jaguars. So, I'll be looking through those Gifts and seeing what should be modified or replaced for Yawatha.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Vedic View Post
        So, your objections to the idea come from posts from development that never made it into 2nd edition and that some of the facets don't fit the concept the OP is working on?
        You didn't read the blog post very well, did you? That was posted after 2e came out, they're guidelines to making your own gifts. Like, 6 months afterwards.

        My objections come from reskinning Uratha as were-jaguars without actually writing original content.

        Not even the Gudthabak get Gifts.

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        • #19
          The bull-shifters should totally get Gifts as well.

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          • #20
            I totally agree the bull-shifters should get Gifts as well.

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            • #21
              Malus being an asshole aside, it might be worthwhile for you (the OP) to think of the Yawatha as a Uratha-replacement, rather than an additional in-setting species. And then maybe drop some ideas for combining them in a setting if you felt like it.


              I call the Integrity-analogue the "subjective stat".
              An explanation how to use Social Manuevering.
              Guanxi Explanations: 1, 2, 3.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Khanwulf View Post
                Part of my interest is a long (several years) intent to eventually detail out the rest of the mythology and mechanics for various other were-cat strains.

                My mental model had tribes replaced by cat breeds, including Jaguar, in order to keep down the number of pangaeans involved, but that's no given. Your conceptualizing the tension between the human social animal and the (big) cat NOT social animal is quite interesting indeed. And obviously not an exact one-to-one mapping of the situation to other breeds (e.g. lions).

                --Khanwulf
                So you one day wish to compile a sort of 2nd Ed Bastet compendium?

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                • #23
                  Just wanted to brag that I get to play Werewolf with Griff. Just saying.

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                  • #24
                    Man, the timing for this is on point... a human NPC in my Werewolf game had a run-in with a Jaguar spirit around the same time they discovered werewolves existed and are convinced that it was a Werejaguar and keep asking the players for info on Werejaguars as a running joke.

                    I don't have all that much constructive to add beyond that I like the concept, just funny that this was posted so close to that game

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                    • #25
                      So after some time, I've come up with a set of First Tongue names for the jaguars' Five Forms. (I owe a lot to the First Tongue Translations thread, thanks Sikla Alkis/nikink/everyone else involved!)

                      Hishu - Human. As canon
                      Itimlu - Wild Man
                      Nemurun - Exalted/strong Panther
                      Ngiriyawa - Dagger/sword Jaguar (refers to the fact that this form is essentially a sabertoothed cat)
                      Yawarede - Jaguar that Pierces (also a pun on the Guarani "jaguarete", true jaguar/true predator)

                      And, I'm trying to think of how to divide the Auspices in a way that thematically fits with the whole night/darkness aspect, and in a way that, hopefully, isn't too edgelord. Here's the first draft...

                      Ora (Warriors/Brutes) - The Light Obscured by Nightfall, or the Open Night.
                      Toselo (Hunters/Stalkers) - The Light Obscured by Trees, or the Forest Night
                      Lamba (Kings/Tyrants) - The Light Obscured by Clouds, or the Rain Night
                      Kuruntu (Shamans/Sorcerers) - The Light Obscured Underground, or the Cave Night
                      Nasi (Innovators/Founders/Culture Heroes) - The Light Obscured by Humankind, or the Constructed Night

                      I'm not sure about these, though as I said it's a first draft. For the Nasi, I could have had something like "Night Illuminated by Fire", and the Lamba feels like a stretch as is

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                      • #26
                        Any particular reason why you’re aligning them along 5 auspices, apart from ‘that’s what werewolves do’? That’s a good place to explore as a point of difference. Fewer or more auspices. Perhaps fewer that overlap - as jaguars are solitary and need to be able to to more on their own?

                        I think you could make these ‘pop’ if you can define their niche as more than ‘werewolves that aren’t werewolves’. Define who Mother Jaguar was - your 1st post called her a contemporary of Father Wolf. He was the Pangaean god of Boundaries and the Hunt. What was she? God of Ingress and Quiet Death? God of Secrets and Shadows? Whatever she is, those things will define how your jaguars move within the world.

                        What of the Night Father? A trickster god, but what kind of tricks? Shapeshifting is common in such legends but what else? How about more focus on misdirection and sudden action? Or misdirection and long-term goals? Many tricksters made seemingly poor decisions that were in fact master moves towards their eventual end-game. What was Night Father?

                        With those two things what Renown would jaguars care about? Why would it be the same five that werewolves use?

                        And Gifts as werewolf things are pretty werewolf-ish. They hunt a spirit and it tears scars into their flesh that allows them to channel Essence in certain ways. That’s a gift. Why make jaguars the same? Perhaps they stalk and kill their prey (they are cats - subtle difference to werewolf pack hunts) and consume the spirit’s Essence, aligning their Essence with its own and assimilating its purpose and anima within themselves. Eventually the jaguar ejects the spirit - whatever form that looks like - and the spirit scampers off having fulfilled its function and survived by delivering on the ancient bargains.

                        All this is off the top of my head. At the moment I think the Yawatha suffer from being Uratha with the serial numbers filed off. You can make them so much more.


                        Writer. Developer. World of Darkness | Chronicles of Darkness | The Trinity Continuum

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                        • #27
                          Bunyip, I certainly can. I appreciate all of this. I'll be pondering this a lot.

                          I'll admit that a lot of the "serial numbers filed off" aspects were me not wanting to reinvent the wheel, particularly since folklore around were-creatures can be really similar. But yeah, this is a lot of help. These are questions I need to ask. And if it weren't 11:30 at night before a workday, I'd be answering them right now.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by griffinguy24 View Post
                            So after some time, I've come up with a set of First Tongue names for the jaguars' Five Forms. (I owe a lot to the First Tongue Translations thread, thanks Sikla Alkis/nikink/everyone else involved!)

                            Hishu - Human. As canon
                            Itimlu - Wild Man
                            Nemurun - Exalted/strong Panther
                            Ngiriyawa - Dagger/sword Jaguar (refers to the fact that this form is essentially a sabertoothed cat)
                            Yawarede - Jaguar that Pierces (also a pun on the Guarani "jaguarete", true jaguar/true predator)

                            And, I'm trying to think of how to divide the Auspices in a way that thematically fits with the whole night/darkness aspect, and in a way that, hopefully, isn't too edgelord. Here's the first draft...

                            Ora (Warriors/Brutes) - The Light Obscured by Nightfall, or the Open Night.
                            Toselo (Hunters/Stalkers) - The Light Obscured by Trees, or the Forest Night
                            Lamba (Kings/Tyrants) - The Light Obscured by Clouds, or the Rain Night
                            Kuruntu (Shamans/Sorcerers) - The Light Obscured Underground, or the Cave Night
                            Nasi (Innovators/Founders/Culture Heroes) - The Light Obscured by Humankind, or the Constructed Night

                            I'm not sure about these, though as I said it's a first draft. For the Nasi, I could have had something like "Night Illuminated by Fire", and the Lamba feels like a stretch as is
                            While I think that Auspices aren't really needed, especially as you develop them and gradually building into their own niche, I agree that Bunyip has quite a few good points of advice.

                            If you believe that they do require them, I would say that a good number would probably be three, small enough that you don’t have to wrack your brain as hard when coming up with what the Auspice Represents and how it functions, as well as to help differentiate them from the Uratha centric Auspices.

                            Actually, an idea came to me as I was typing this, partially inspired by the Auspices for the Colony ( Werecats) from War Against The Pure- which is a wonderful book, I highly recommend it if you don’t have it- and cultural inspiration by the Aztecs along with Jaguar behavior.

                            Perhaps these three Auspices could revolve around the solitary predation habits of Jaguars, bloodletting and its impact on magic and the spirit world, and a sort of dark and borderline malevolent focus on stealth for the purpose of fear rather than preparing for the deadliest killing blow, to help add a feline cruelty to them.

                            Those could be interesting themes for the mystical shackles tethering them to their God/desses

                            Also, I may be a heathen.. but I imagine SaberLeomon when visualizing their Urshul equivalent x3

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                            • #29
                              So, for the jaguars, and I was thinking of this (although you would know a lot more about the subject material than I), in legends, both the Olmecs and the Mayans considered the jaguar as a spirit ally that would accompany and help shamans during their spirit journeys. As well, for the Mayans the jaguars were the guardians of darkness and the underworld and guided souls through the lands of the dead.

                              The Aztecs shared the Mayan's beliefs and also made them warriors. The Chavins felt the jaguars were the perfect animal in complete touch with nature and able to capture any other animal.

                              For Renowns, I can see Cunning, Wisdom, Glory, and a strong case for Purity to be made. Other items to consider are their ties to the Underworld. As an example, do the jaguars, as an example, travel to the Hisil during the day and the Underworld at night? Are they instead able to detect and open Avernian Gateways? Can they travel to both but in keeping with the Mayan beliefs is daytime for the living (eg. No crossing) and nighttime for the spirits and the underworld (eg. Cross to both; perhaps not even need a locus at night to cross while being unable to cross period during the day?) How do they relate to ghosts?

                              Also, jaguars are predators as well. They also gave people the power to face their enemies. How does this translate into their Hunt? Kill an enemy and eat their heart every so often? Is the enemy their own specific enemy or could it be an enemy of their chosen community or group?

                              Since they're solitary animals as well, do they even need tribes? If they do have tribes, how do their tribes differ from those of the Uratha (solitary vs pack animal)?

                              There are quite a few interesting questions here I think.

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                              • #30
                                One other thing I just wanted to add was the difference between enemy and prey. Enemy entails someone that is at odds with you; prey does not. As an example, in 1e War Against the Pure, the Colony have to kill someone below a certain level of Morality every so often which is a very specific category and could be construed as someone doing heinous crimes against a community.

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