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Why does everyone seem to have it out for the Uratha?

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  • Why does everyone seem to have it out for the Uratha?

    Is it just me, or is WtF oversaturated with antagonistic splats compared to other gamelines? Everyone and their dog seems to have a bone to pick with Luna's children. You've got the Pure (who outnumber them 3 to 1), the Bale Hounds + the Maeljin and their immundi, Idigam and their spawn, Hosts, cannibalistic Ghost Wolves (the Cull), spirits and spirit-ridden of all stripes (which include most of the Shadow, really), the Geryo and the occasional psycho Hunter. Even Helios, mightiest of all Celestines, is cold and aloof at best, hostile and antagonistic, at worst.

    Compare them to, say, Changelings who have to worry about, what? The Gentry, Huntsmen and loyalists/privateers. Beasts have it even better.

    Was this done purposely to draw parallels with the harsh and unforgiving nature of RL wilderness or did newbad guys just pile up with each new book and no one noticed 'till they got too many?

  • #2
    How are we counting these things up?

    I mean, I could rephrase that list into: antagonistic werewolves, spirits and their servants/twisted offspring/pawns, and hunters (plus any of the other main line supernaturals that could also be antagonists). Which seems a lot shorter and stacks up pretty "well" to anyone else.

    Similarly, can I expand that CtL list by a lot: The Gentry, the Huntsmen, hedge beasts, hobgoblinss, hedge ghosts, goblin queens, oathbreakers, bridge-burners, privateers, loyalists, eidolons, hostile oneiropomps, fetches, political rival Lost, and of course hunters and other crossover antagonists. Seems like a lot more put that way, right?

    Ultimately what does it really matter? One game having one category of antagonists that has a dozen variations is really the same number of options as a game with a dozen categories of antagonists that don't have meaningful distinctions into sub-categories. What matters is if the games have enough antagonists to fulfill the narrative goals of the game, and that the options provided make for fun stories.

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    • #3
      They did kinda break the spirit world soooooo


      You've been playing around the magic that is black
      But all the powerful magical mysteries never gave a single thing back

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      • #4
        Matter of perspective aside(because yes, a lot of games have a wide variety of opposition, including Changeling the Lost as mentioned), it also has to do with the dual issue of a) having a very diverse ecosystem play with that has a lot of room for pissing things off, and b) being god-killing demigods who go around reshaping territories to their own purpose that is both personally bothersome and a grim reminder of when a god of the world basically made everyone play by their rules.

        The 3-to-1 Ratio hasn't been mentioned in ages, and is largely implied by Second Edition to have been dropped, btw.


        Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
        The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
        Feminine pronouns, please.

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        • #5
          Taking a crown is one thing. Holding it is another.

          The Forsaken took the mantle of apex predator and swore to continue Urfarah’s sacred duty. And the old wolf had made a lot of enemies.


          Writer. Developer. World of Darkness | Chronicles of Darkness | The Trinity Continuum

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          • #6
            Wasn't the 3-to-1 thing setting specific? As in, the Forsaken had suffered a lot of losses in North America due to in-setting reasons and it could vary wildly across the world?

            As for the number of antagonists, I'm pretty sure hunters have everyone else beat on that front.
            Hunters aside, Werewolf do have a lot of different antagonists, probably only rivalled by Vampire considering all the weird non-Kindred vampires that show up in two of VtR's Night Horrors supplements as well as a few other books. Werewolf has a pretty good in-setting reason for having so many (mentioned a few times above), and an out-of-setting reason in the fact that Werewolf is extremely combat focused compared to most other games (other than Hunter). The werewolves must hunt (literally speaking) and 99% of their moveset is based around that. Having multiple different threats at varying levels of difficulty and with different strengths and weaknesses is really helpful for providing varied antagonists in your story that can cover whatever threat level you're aiming for.

            What I don't get is why Vampire of all the games has so many different things that go bump in the night. Especially since it's so geared towards personal horror (the character's relationships with humans) and political intrigue. I'm certainly not complaining but that's because the game I'm playing is a lot more focused on combat, exploration and weirdness than the themes presented in the core book. Anyway, that would be another thread.


            Bloodline: The Stygians
            Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
            Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Tessie View Post
              Wasn't the 3-to-1 thing setting specific? As in, the Forsaken had suffered a lot of losses in North America due to in-setting reasons and it could vary wildly across the world?

              As for the number of antagonists, I'm pretty sure hunters have everyone else beat on that front.
              Hunters aside, Werewolf do have a lot of different antagonists, probably only rivalled by Vampire considering all the weird non-Kindred vampires that show up in two of VtR's Night Horrors supplements as well as a few other books. Werewolf has a pretty good in-setting reason for having so many (mentioned a few times above), and an out-of-setting reason in the fact that Werewolf is extremely combat focused compared to most other games (other than Hunter). The werewolves must hunt (literally speaking) and 99% of their moveset is based around that. Having multiple different threats at varying levels of difficulty and with different strengths and weaknesses is really helpful for providing varied antagonists in your story that can cover whatever threat level you're aiming for.

              What I don't get is why Vampire of all the games has so many different things that go bump in the night. Especially since it's so geared towards personal horror (the character's relationships with humans) and political intrigue. I'm certainly not complaining but that's because the game I'm playing is a lot more focused on combat, exploration and weirdness than the themes presented in the core book. Anyway, that would be another thread.

              The thing about Vampires is that, other than the Strix, VII and the Brood, most of the threats they face are either mutant vamp off-shoots and vitae-drinking animals, strange supernatural blood diseases/curses and miscellaneous cryptids that opernate largerly on a localized level and don't (generally) go out of their way to target Kindred, as a species. Werewolves don't have that luxury, the are numerous nasties out there that are gunning for them with explicit genocidal intent. There's a huge gap in danger levels too. I doubt any modern day Kindred ever had to face anything like Void Leviathans.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Logothétēs View Post


                The thing about Vampires is that, other than the Strix, VII and the Brood, most of the threats they face are either mutant vamp off-shoots and vitae-drinking animals, strange supernatural blood diseases/curses and miscellaneous cryptids that opernate largerly on a localized level and don't (generally) go out of their way to target Kindred, as a species. Werewolves don't have that luxury, the are numerous nasties out there that are gunning for them with explicit genocidal intent. There's a huge gap in danger levels too. I doubt any modern day Kindred ever had to face anything like Void Leviathans.
                ok now. you cant do that. you cant just separate all the werewolf antagonists into individual threats, but then just categorize all vampire antagonists as "off-shoots" in order to make it seem like they dont have that many.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Primordial newcomer View Post
                  ok now. you cant do that. you cant just separate all the werewolf antagonists into individual threats, but then just categorize all vampire antagonists as "off-shoots" in order to make it seem like they dont have that many.
                  The point was not to cluster all antagonists of one gameline but to point out that they're generally not dangerous and doesn't even have to be antagonistic, while many werewolf antagonists are either genocidal or, if they don't explicitly have it out for werewolves or Forsaken, are incredibly dangerous by their very nature.


                  Bloodline: The Stygians
                  Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
                  Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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                  • #10
                    Part of the theme. You wouldn't be "forsaken" if you have many friends.

                    And as mentioned while the Uratha has a noble duty, their enforcement of that duty probably don't feel very noble when you are on business end of a werewolf's fangs due to reasons that you simply have no clue about. And that don't include all the creatures that don't like meddling killing-machines coming around to rough them up when they do something that these killing-machines don't like.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Tessie View Post

                      The point was not to cluster all antagonists of one gameline but to point out that they're generally not dangerous and doesn't even have to be antagonistic, while many werewolf antagonists are either genocidal or, if they don't explicitly have it out for werewolves or Forsaken, are incredibly dangerous by their very nature.
                      does not change the fact he is lumping all possible antagonist to make it seem like vampires have less. we cant forget their are protectorates of Forsaken AND Pure, spirits who can be allies, and that many of the forsaken prey also tend to hate each other, such as spirits and Hosts, which can make for enemy of my enemy kinda deal

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Primordial newcomer View Post
                        does not change the fact he is lumping all possible antagonist to make it seem like vampires have less. we cant forget their are protectorates of Forsaken AND Pure, spirits who can be allies, and that many of the forsaken prey also tend to hate each other, such as spirits and Hosts, which can make for enemy of my enemy kinda deal
                        Put it in the context of that very post. He mentioned three named groups and four general groups as vampire antagonists, immediately followed by lumping most werewolf antagonists into a single group. It was not about number of antagonists; it was about the danger they pose to the two splats.


                        Bloodline: The Stygians
                        Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
                        Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Tessie View Post

                          Put it in the context of that very post. He mentioned three named groups and four general groups as vampire antagonists, immediately followed by lumping most werewolf antagonists into a single group. It was not about number of antagonists; it was about the danger they pose to the two splats.

                          Exactly this. Thanks for explaining it. Didn't think it'd be this hard for some to get it.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Logothétēs View Post
                            Is it just me, or is WtF oversaturated with antagonistic splats compared to other gamelines? Everyone and their dog seems to have a bone to pick with Luna's children. You've got the Pure (who outnumber them 3 to 1), the Bale Hounds + the Maeljin and their immundi, Idigam and their spawn, Hosts, cannibalistic Ghost Wolves (the Cull), spirits and spirit-ridden of all stripes (which include most of the Shadow, really), the Geryo and the occasional psycho Hunter. Even Helios, mightiest of all Celestines, is cold and aloof at best, hostile and antagonistic, at worst.
                            Werewolf is a game that naturally sets itself against others. You're hunters, hunting humans is way too easy, hunting werewolves is meant to be a more unique affair. Having a wide variety of antagonists is part of the game, especially given their long and storied history and the theme of ones past affecting ones present. Vampire is meant to be more of an insular thing where you can be brought down (even if it's just in Humanity), and the depths you can go to are reflected in other vampires. Mage is also more insular, though it has its focus on existential horror alongside personal responsibility. These things aren't as much a bother with werewolf, where you're encouraged to be the best werewolf you can be with a handful of rules to guide you. You don't have to feel out 'what is right' because it's there in the Tenets, and you're meant to go out and make a big name for yourself and do famed deeds (even if just among your own kind).

                            That said, second edition changed some things, a big one being that the Pure, while antagonistic, are not inherently outnumbering the Forsaken, and are more likely to kill Forsaken in response to something rather than just because they exist. The other big one being the spirit is not inherently hostile to werewolves. Riders and Claimers are going to stand out among them, because they are breaking the law set down by Father Wolf, but their hostility may come more from 'I don't want to get caught' more than 'I hate those guys.' Though there's plenty of room for spirits who dedicate their lives to killing werewolves, especially given that they are functionally immortal and their deaths are most often at the hand of other spirits or werewolves.

                            Also in second edition we have another parallel between spirits and idigam, where they are not inherently antagonistic with werewolves (Deban Dun from Shunned is notable in just avoiding them) but they seem to appreciate that werewolves, likely due to their ancestry, are going to try and stop them or, like Father Wolf, imprison them in some sort of barren hellscape.

                            Was this done purposely to draw parallels with the harsh and unforgiving nature of RL wilderness or did newbad guys just pile up with each new book and no one noticed 'till they got too many?


                            While there are real life parallels (few people attempting to make their mark in the world are without enemies or rivals) it doesn't have anything to do with RL wilderness.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Logothétēs View Post
                              Exactly this. Thanks for explaining it. Didn't think it'd be this hard for some to get it.
                              You opened the thread by listing a bunch of rare and regional threats on the same level as the Pure and then subdividing "Helios isn't terribly fond of werewolves" from "spirits in general aren't terribly fond of werewolves." That looks like stuffing the list.

                              You started talking about "explicit genocidal intent" among the populations of 1) killer demigods from the dawn of civilization and 2) beings from a mirror-dimension where the proliferation of power can be directly compared to infectious diseases. That looks like willful ignorance of the fact that a mostly-lethal and heavily unreasoning context is going to provide a lot of threats that want to kill and/or eat everything else.

                              You somehow completely forgot that Mage has nearly as many antagonist types without the ready explanation of "you're assumed to be defending a territory and that implies the game needs a lot of wolves to throw at your door." That looks like a failure of perspective.

                              Like, the answer to the question you titled this thread with is "Lots of things have it out for lots of other things, but werewolves happen to put themselves specifically in the way of many of those things because of what they are and what they do."

                              Pretty much any gameline that has another dimension to work with can bump up the danger that its characters deal with, and Werewolf is a game where you and most of the things you'll commonly encounter as threats are practically immortal. There's a certain degree of escalation you get there that you don't get in games where the human populace are an unavoidable issue or where the bigger concern of its protagonist types is being thrown in a cage for the rest of eternity or losing an opportunity to act on something ever again.


                              Resident Lore-Hound
                              Currently Consuming: Hunter: the Vigil 1e

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