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Why does everyone seem to have it out for the Uratha?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Satchel View Post
    You opened the thread by listing a bunch of rare and regional threats on the same level as the Pure and then subdividing "Helios isn't terribly fond of werewolves" from "spirits in general aren't terribly fond of werewolves." That looks like stuffing the list.

    You started talking about "explicit genocidal intent" among the populations of 1) killer demigods from the dawn of civilization and 2) beings from a mirror-dimension where the proliferation of power can be directly compared to infectious diseases. That looks like willful ignorance of the fact that a mostly-lethal and heavily unreasoning context is going to provide a lot of threats that want to kill and/or eat everything else.

    You somehow completely forgot that Mage has nearly as many antagonist types without the ready explanation of "you're assumed to be defending a territory and that implies the game needs a lot of wolves to throw at your door." That looks like a failure of perspective.

    Like, the answer to the question you titled this thread with is "Lots of things have it out for lots of other things, but werewolves happen to put themselves specifically in the way of many of those things because of what they are and what they do."

    Pretty much any gameline that has another dimension to work with can bump up the danger that its characters deal with, and Werewolf is a game where you and most of the things you'll commonly encounter as threats are practically immortal. There's a certain degree of escalation you get there that you don't get in games where the human populace are an unavoidable issue or where the bigger concern of its protagonist types is being thrown in a cage for the rest of eternity or losing an opportunity to act on something ever again.
    thank you for that post

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Satchel View Post
      You opened the thread by listing a bunch of rare and regional threats on the same level as the Pure and then subdividing "Helios isn't terribly fond of werewolves" from "spirits in general aren't terribly fond of werewolves." That looks like stuffing the list.

      You started talking about "explicit genocidal intent" among the populations of 1) killer demigods from the dawn of civilization and 2) beings from a mirror-dimension where the proliferation of power can be directly compared to infectious diseases. That looks like willful ignorance of the fact that a mostly-lethal and heavily unreasoning context is going to provide a lot of threats that want to kill and/or eat everything else.

      You somehow completely forgot that Mage has nearly as many antagonist types without the ready explanation of "you're assumed to be defending a territory and that implies the game needs a lot of wolves to throw at your door." That looks like a failure of perspective.

      Like, the answer to the question you titled this thread with is "Lots of things have it out for lots of other things, but werewolves happen to put themselves specifically in the way of many of those things because of what they are and what they do."

      Pretty much any gameline that has another dimension to work with can bump up the danger that its characters deal with, and Werewolf is a game where you and most of the things you'll commonly encounter as threats are practically immortal. There's a certain degree of escalation you get there that you don't get in games where the human populace are an unavoidable issue or where the bigger concern of its protagonist types is being thrown in a cage for the rest of eternity or losing an opportunity to act on something ever again.
      What on Earth are you blathering about man? My point was that one post was about the variety of enemies in single gameline, and the other about the difference in power-levels between the enemy splats of two gamelines. That's it, that's my point. Thought it'd be crystal clear but apparently no.

      And in what way are the Maeljin, the Idigam and the Cull (who are implicitly refered to as transcontinental and ever-expanding) 'rare and regional threats'? Are you just being deliberately contrarian right now?

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Logothétēs View Post
        My point was that one post was about the variety of enemies in single gameline, and the other about the difference in power-levels between the enemy splats of two gamelines.
        Then why did you completely ignore my post as it addresses a significant classification issue for trying to assess the variety and power levels of antagonists in the different game lines.

        And in what way are the Maeljin, the Idigam and the Cull (who are implicitly refered to as transcontinental and ever-expanding) 'rare and regional threats'?
        "And" might be an inadvertent source of miscommunication with "or" being more appropriate statement.

        The Maeljin and Idigam are rare in the sense of being unique beings with very small numbers. As well, while they are theoretically global threats, their individuality means that if they seriously show up, it's a regional disaster. The general idea of them is like climate change, with the individual instance of them showing up is like a super storm hitting your area.

        The Cull are rare in that there just aren't that many of them (there aren't that many werewolves, those that stick to being a Ghost Wolf are a fraction of them, and those that get sucked into any of the spiritual threats the Ghost Wolves face are a fraction of them, and the ones that happen to end up in the Cull instead of something else another fraction). Similar to the big threats above, they are a global concern, but only really an issue as a region matter: most of them aren't a threat to a pack of werewolves because of their difficulty forming groups. You need enough of them building up in a specific area before they become a significant issue, making it a regional matter in that sense.

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        • #19
          My understanding is that declaring you're going to enforce standards on a community without asking their say in the matter, might draw the ire of people in the community. They may not want an outsider stepping in and policing them, even the ones who weren't misbehaving (or "misbehaving") prior to your declaration.
          Last edited by TheCountAlucard; 02-27-2020, 09:14 PM.


          He/him

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Logothétēs View Post
            And in what way are the Maeljin, the Idigam and the Cull (who are implicitly refered to as transcontinental and ever-expanding) 'rare and regional threats'?
            There are spirits in pretty much every territory. The Hosts are sufficiently virulent that it's not inconceivable for them to be basically anywhere their Shard animals can be found. Humans and werewolves go without saying, and Ridden and Claimed are notionally capable of being present anywhere spirits interact with the Flesh.

            The Maeljin mostly don't show up in the Shadow or on Earth — note that the closest thing to a direct manifestation in both editions so far is in Lake Vostok, Antarctica — and their agents spring from or are recruited through specific geographical locations. The Idigam are a class of being that is equivalent in potency to at least a Rank 3 spirit and has a dramatically more noticeable impact on their surroundings even without their behavioral pressures pushing them to do something that will shake up the world around them in the process or completion of the task. The Cull is, as Arms correctly points out, a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of all werewolves that exist. Other things in this grouping include the Geryo, who are all one-of-a-kind apex predators worming their way out of the Gauntlet millennia after their imprisonment in a similar fashion to the Moon-Banished, and the Void Leviathans, which are so alien that they screw up the world around them just by their presence and which only get to Earth in the first place when Luna can't stop them in the atmosphere beforehand.

            The second category is not the same as the first category, as evidenced by most of the second category being drawn from Night Horrors, a sub-line largely defined by being a collection of antagonists themed toward one gameline or another.

            Werewolf is a gameline where the hunt is the main narrative driver and dark animism — i.e. "everything is alive and vaguely malevolent" — is a major theme. Of course most of the things to deal with are going to be antagonists with a bone to pick. That doesn't square meaningfully to "genocidal intent" from every or even most antagonist types in the game.

            The world werewolves inhabit is hostile to them and many others — also, water is wet.


            Resident Lore-Hound
            Currently Consuming: Hunter: the Vigil 1e

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            • #21
              One thing that's unmentioned is that popular gamelines tend to accrete stuff just by dint of having a larger pool of creativity to draw from. For a completely Doylist read of whoever versus Werewolves, try comparing the number of sourcebooks. Especially the number of sourcebooks that specifically discuss antagonists.

              Vampire and Mage get a lot of Z-splat focus since they're far more inward-focused, so people often want to come up with specific bloodlines and legacies that reflect some specific vision they have, usually to describe a particular character they've come up with. Werewolf is comparatively a lot less dependent on lodges for characterization, and a lot of what makes the gameline interesting is in the worldbuilding, so a lot of people are enticed to do deep explorations of little nuances.

              Like, for all that Mage fans like to produce one-sheet summaries of How The Whole Cosmology Works, the gameline where people have been inspired to conlang is Werewolf. This isn't story hooks or adventure seeds. This is just Fun Facts About the World. Look at how much of the Night Horrors book is built off the question, "But how do spirits work in outer space?"

              And what's the easiest way to tie those back to the game and its play? "Oh yeah, and they hate Uratha, too." Done. Sometimes you can tie it back as weird shit about character X, but that's frankly extraneous most of the time. (Also, because Uratha are so badass, you can Worf Effect in various ways really easily.)


              I call the Integrity-analogue the "subjective stat".
              An explanation how to use Social Manuevering.
              Guanxi Explanations: 1, 2, 3.

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              • #22
                This is pretty much White-Wolf theme since WW:tA. WW, is a war-game.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Logothétēs View Post

                  Was this done purposely to draw parallels with the harsh and unforgiving nature of RL wilderness or did newbad guys just pile up with each new book and no one noticed 'till they got too many?
                  Just to pitch in on this particular point - the large roster of antagonists and active factions in Forsaken is absolutely intentional, not something we stumbled into by mistake!


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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by nofather View Post
                    That said, second edition changed some things, a big one being that the Pure, while antagonistic, are not inherently outnumbering the Forsaken, and are more likely to kill Forsaken in response to something rather than just because they exist. The other big one being the spirit is not inherently hostile to werewolves. Riders and Claimers are going to stand out among them, because they are breaking the law set down by Father Wolf, but their hostility may come more from 'I don't want to get caught' more than 'I hate those guys.' Though there's plenty of room for spirits who dedicate their lives to killing werewolves, especially given that they are functionally immortal and their deaths are most often at the hand of other spirits or werewolves.

                    Also in second edition we have another parallel between spirits and idigam, where they are not inherently antagonistic with werewolves (Deban Dun from Shunned is notable in just avoiding them) but they seem to appreciate that werewolves, likely due to their ancestry, are going to try and stop them or, like Father Wolf, imprison them in some sort of barren hellscape.
                    I love all of those changes. It gives you all the more options for either genocidal antagonists, indifferent antagonists, scared-of-you antagonists, not really antagonistic prey, etc etc Crossed with the variety of creatures, it gets kind of cool.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Acrozatarim View Post

                      Just to pitch in on this particular point - the large roster of antagonists and active factions in Forsaken is absolutely intentional, not something we stumbled into by mistake!
                      If it's not a bother, any particular reason for doing that?

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                      • #26
                        It could be worse, all things considered. They haven’t been driven to extinction yet, and they never will be, unless Luna is somehow destroyed.

                        That said, when you’re in certain parts of the world where you’re so desperate to ask the STRIX of all goddamn things for help, and they say yes... things are pretty fucking dire.

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