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Is Primal Urge overpriced?

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  • Is Primal Urge overpriced?

    I can't help but feel that Primal Urge is overpriced for what it gets you, particularly below Primal Urge 6. I realize that the "power stat" is priced the same across all the game lines and that's one reason why it costs 5 exp, but in Werewolf I really don't think it makes sense for a low Primal Urge character to buy up Primal Urge next to all the other things you could be buying instead.

    If you take a Werewolf who is Primal Urge 1, what do they really get from buying this stat up? They get a fairly substantial drawback (feeding restriction) and in return they can... spend more essence per turn? I haven't seen many instances where Werewolf characters were hamstrung by not being able to spend enough essence per turn. Sure, there are some instances where it would be nice to pop two combat buffs on turn one, or to shift and activate a gift, but it doesn't come up all that often. I don't really see the raising of the essence cap as particularly useful either, since getting to full essence in Werewolf is really quite rare in my experience.

    When you compare these modest benefits to the opportunity of buying an attribute dot, a dot of renown and/or a new gift, I don't see many situations where you would opt for the Primal Urge. In fact the only case where I have considered buying it for my characters is when Primal Urge is a prerequisite for Merits (like favored form). Moreover, I've played in two Werewolf chronicles since 2015 and I don't think any player in either chronicle ever bought a dot of Primal Urge.

    As it stands I think Primal Urge either needs to be buffed or made cheaper to be appealing to players.I think it's worth about 3 experiences right now, but I like the symmetry of keeping it at 5 exp as with the other game lines. One idea I've been toying with is letting Werewolves passively generate essence with Primal Urge (something like 1 essence per night every 2 dots of Primal Urge) or else making it so that you gain essence equal to your dots in Primal Urge while your Auspice Moon is in the sky.

    I'm curious to hear what everyone else thinks. Is Primal Urge overpriced? Have you made any changes to it in your own chronicles?

  • #2
    I found it not overpriced, the only issue we had was regeneration scaling up too slow, so we sped it up some. In my phone atm but offhand I think you got 2 regen at 2, then it went up every 2 Primal Urge. The thing is aside from the essence per, and regen and Lunacy and tracking bonus, there's a lot of other bonuses that come with it. Supernatural tolerance, from em altering Merits opening up, resistance to poison and disease, the inherent form bonuses like Sheep's Clothing.

    As in most gamelines, the power stat doesn't need to raise if you're playing just one to four sessions, but in longer term games, where Attributes may get above 5 and such, or the ST takes advantage of its perks, it gets more noticeable.

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    • #3
      There's a lot of things your analysis seems to be skipping:

      1) Multiple Essence/turn is a huge deal because it lets you heal Lethal in combat without sacrificing other things that cost Essence that round. Given how most things are doing Lethal Damage in 2e, the base Bashing healing is fairly situational, and base Lethal healing is great but only if you win the fight.

      2) Better Clash of Wills dice-pools are always good.

      3) You directly subtract your Primal Urge from Toxicity ratings. While regeneration tends to mean Uratha tend to survive poison and disease, this is actually a very significant bonus in reducing the cost to do so (esp. if you're facing something supernatural that uses this is a killing tactic).

      4) Primal Urge directly boosts your smell and hearing while using Wolf Senses.

      5) Hishu, Dalu, and Gauru all get better with more Primal Urge. Urhan's gets better in a bit more of a niche way less likely to come up (and overlaps with #2).

      6) Hunter's Aspect's duration is boosted by Primal Urge on an exceptional success (which is a lot easier to get than normal rolls because you add three traits together), and Primal Urge is part of your dice-pool to not get hit by Hunter's Aspect if the Pure are coming to get you.

      7) Higher Primal Urge adds a penalty to Lunacy checks, making it more likely that enemies that suffer Lunacy are either weakened or flat out run off. The duration of the Conditions for a failed Lunacy check is based on your Primal Urge, which gives you more time of human witnesses being pushed around by those Conditions for you to get away from any potential issues like Hunters figuring out what's going on.

      I've never seen any trouble with Uratha topping up their Essence. Sacred Hunting spirits (because you need to hunt something every once and awhile) and/or a power Locus gets more than Essence during even relatively short down time. If you've got five players and each sinks a single Merit dot into Dedicated Locus, it generates 15 Essence every day for the pack to gobble up. Uratha don't have a lot of great ways to get Essence fast, which makes bigger storage as Primal Urge increases that much more important: coming into a major period of stress full is easy, but high stress situations are going to tap you faster than you can recover. This has always been a major reason to increase Primal Urge unless you're running a game that never has any significant down time.

      I think Primal Urge 2 is a bit underwhelming, and at 3 it's a bit less obviously potent because a lot of the things I listed above aren't in the Primal Urge chart so you have to remember they exist. But Primal Urge 4 is definitely when it starts kicking ass.

      Of course, I might be a bit biased here, because I've played in 1e games where Primal Urge was one of, if not the, worst power stat out there. As it actually got a significant boost in 2e, it feels more appealing.

      There's also an optional boost in the book for being able to roll any normal roll with Primal Urge + 3 instead of the normal roll (including any existing modifiers), at the risk of Kuruth. Higher Primal Urge means better dice-pols and more uses before Kuruth goes from risk to automatic.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by nofather View Post
        the only issue we had was regeneration scaling up too slow, so we sped it up some. In my phone atm but offhand I think you got 2 regen at 2, then it went up every 2 Primal Urge.
        The regen scaling is super slow at the start. You only get to 2B at Primal Urge 4, 3B at 6, and then 4B, 5B, and 6B come at Primal Urge 8, 9, and 10, respectively. I feel like this could be better spaced out too, I would probably change it to an increase every odd primal urge.

        Originally posted by nofather View Post
        As in most gamelines, the power stat doesn't need to raise if you're playing just one to four sessions, but in longer term games, where Attributes may get above 5 and such, or the ST takes advantage of its perks, it gets more noticeable.
        See, I thought this would be the case when we started playing as well. But we're now over a year and 30 exp into our second Werewolf Chronicle and like I said, no one has bought Primal Urge. Getting to Primal Urge 6+ would certainly be nice but no one wants to pay the 25 exp entry fee, and there are other, cheaper ways for Werewolves to access attributes above 5

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
          1) Multiple Essence/turn is a huge deal because it lets you heal Lethal in combat without sacrificing other things that cost Essence that round. Given how most things are doing Lethal Damage in 2e, the base Bashing healing is fairly situational, and base Lethal healing is great but only if you win the fight.
          What we've found is that it's usually only on the first couple of turns that you actually want to use essence during a fight. Once you've assumed the form you want and activated your buffs, you tend not to be spending much essence each and every turn, meaning it's there for healing. But even beyond that, we've found that Gauru is the primary means of healing during combat. Even if you can only hold the form for 3 turns, most combats just don't last long enough for this to be a huge issue (we had a massive fight with a Pure pack recently where everyone was in Gauru by the end, and it lasted about six rounds in total).

          Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
          2) Better Clash of Wills dice-pools are always good.
          In a straight Clash of Wills, sure, but these are rare. Most of the time a Gift (or something like the Hunter's Aspect) will define that you are rolling Primal Urge + a resistance stat versus the attacker. In my experience the defender almost always loses these contests, and it's not hard to see why. You'll typically be rolling 2 stats (Primal Urge + a resistance stat) versus 3 of the attacker's stats (Attribute + Skill + Renown in the case of Werewolves). Even if the attacker is a brand-new character with no experiences, they're likely to have decent dice pools here: they likely have something like 3 + 3 + 2 or 8 dice in total to attack with. By contrast, the defender, even if they're depicted as being exceptionally composed or resolved or what have you (5 in the stat) still needs Primal Urge 3 to match the attacker.

          And it actually gets worse as your Primal Urge goes up. For every dot you buy of Primal Urge, the attacker can buy a dot of the relevant skill and a dot of the relevant renown for the same cost, meaning every potential dice you add is offset by 2 of theirs

          Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
          3) You directly subtract your Primal Urge from Toxicity ratings. While regeneration tends to mean Uratha tend to survive poison and disease, this is actually a very significant bonus in reducing the cost to do so (esp. if you're facing something supernatural that uses this is a killing tactic).

          4) Primal Urge directly boosts your smell and hearing while using Wolf Senses.

          5) Hishu, Dalu, and Gauru all get better with more Primal Urge. Urhan's gets better in a bit more of a niche way less likely to come up (and overlaps with #2).
          These are all nice to have, but I'm not convinced that they are worth the cost, particularly in the face of buying a skill dot plus a renown with the same exp.

          Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
          6) Hunter's Aspect's duration is boosted by Primal Urge on an exceptional success (which is a lot easier to get than normal rolls because you add three traits together), and Primal Urge is part of your dice-pool to not get hit by Hunter's Aspect if the Pure are coming to get you.
          I'll admit, I don't think Hunter's Aspect has ever come up in our games, but Primal Urge's use in defending against it is not convincing for the reasons I gave above. Boosting the duration on an exceptional success is certainly nice, but again, I think I would rather have 2 additional dice by boosting my renown + skill.

          Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
          7) Higher Primal Urge adds a penalty to Lunacy checks, making it more likely that enemies that suffer Lunacy are either weakened or flat out run off. The duration of the Conditions for a failed Lunacy check is based on your Primal Urge, which gives you more time of human witnesses being pushed around by those Conditions for you to get away from any potential issues like Hunters figuring out what's going on.
          Is the prey failing a lunacy check really a good thing? One outcome is that they run away, which is usually good. The other two equally likely outcomes are that they go berserk and attack you or become much easier for spirits to possess, which are both bad unless you were looking for an excuse to murder them.

          Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
          I've never seen any trouble with Uratha topping up their Essence. Sacred Hunting spirits (because you need to hunt something every once and awhile) and/or a power Locus gets more than Essence during even relatively short down time. If you've got five players and each sinks a single Merit dot into Dedicated Locus, it generates 15 Essence every day for the pack to gobble up. Uratha don't have a lot of great ways to get Essence fast, which makes bigger storage as Primal Urge increases that much more important: coming into a major period of stress full is easy, but high stress situations are going to tap you faster than you can recover. This has always been a major reason to increase Primal Urge unless you're running a game that never has any significant down time.
          I think this might be something unique to our Storyteller's style, but we rarely have any sort of significant downtime. In our games going on a sacred hunt typically means not putting out some other fire, so essence tends to be quite scarce. I hadn't realized that dedicated locus generated quite that much essence, so that may be something we need to look into.

          Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
          I think Primal Urge 2 is a bit underwhelming, and at 3 it's a bit less obviously potent because a lot of the things I listed above aren't in the Primal Urge chart so you have to remember they exist. But Primal Urge 4 is definitely when it starts kicking ass.

          Of course, I might be a bit biased here, because I've played in 1e games where Primal Urge was one of, if not the, worst power stat out there. As it actually got a significant boost in 2e, it feels more appealing.

          There's also an optional boost in the book for being able to roll any normal roll with Primal Urge + 3 instead of the normal roll (including any existing modifiers), at the risk of Kuruth. Higher Primal Urge means better dice-pols and more uses before Kuruth goes from risk to automatic.
          I think it's really Primal Urge 2 and 3 that are the problems. No one wants a 10 exp tax before the stat starts being useful. Honestly, I think part of my issue is that I compare it with Blood Potency, which is very well incentivized, especially at the lower levels. There are some things here that I hadn't considered, but I still don't think I'm going to spend my character's next 5 exp buying up their Primal Urge when there are a lot of other things I would like them to do first.

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          • #6
            Playstyle is certainly an issue, and a fine reason to house rule things if your group wants to because how your style changes the values of different things. Then again, 30 XP in a year could also be an issue, as that's either fairly light on the Beats, or less frequent play than a year might imply.

            Is multiple Essence a turn as useful if the fight lasts long enough that you're down to just spending Essence on healing? Sure, not really. But as you also note... most fights don't last that long anyway. The fight is probably decided in the first ~3 rounds, so being able to spend lots of Essence per round gives you a significant tactical advantage over someone that can't. Being able to unleash a ton of stuff in the first few rounds makes victory that much easier to pull off. As for using Gauru to heal... well... again that's a style thing. If you're in multiple combats a in a scene... that's only going to work of one. If your group tends to treat every combat as a scene... that's more functional.

            When it comes to the question of "is this underpriced" though, the thing is that Primal Urge does a lot of generally small things. If you had to break up Primal Urge 2 into a bunch of one dot Merits... it would probably be at least five if not more. Meaning it isn't underpriced... as long as you want the package it gives you (which I don't see why you wouldn't). It doesn't have the direct oomph other options do, but it has a lot more breadth.

            Also, calling it a "tax" feels off because even if Primal Urge 2 and 3 don't feel great, they're providing you benefits. It's not like you get nothing for that 10 XP, it's just not as immediately potent as raising your Auspice Renown. Of course, Renown requires an appropriate action to raise in game... if you have XP building up because you want to raise Cunning, but haven't done something worthy of it, are you really going to not spend it when you could raise Primal Urge instead? It's not like you're going to be able to buy more than one dot of Cunning when you do pull something off.

            Though as a side note: Every Locus generates Rating x 3 Essence per day. Dedicated Locus just means you (or your pack) have control over it enough to assume that goes to your purposes. Nothing stops you from raiding other Loci for their Essence... but you actually have to do that to get any that way.

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            • #7
              As Arms points out, Primal Urge contributes to a lot of little things, including almost every facet of being a werewolf that isn't straight Gift use; as you yourself point out, it's also the prerequisite for Merits like Fortified Form or Instinctive Defense.

              This is almost identical to what Wyrd contributes toward in Changeling, right along with worsening a drawback that risks you starving to death for magical reasons.

              Here's the thing: Not every game is built under the assumption that you will raise your Supernatural Potency Trait with Experiences more than once or twice. Werewolf is one of the ones where it's distinctly not required, between the benefits of shapeshifting, pack structure, Dedicated Locus, et cetera. Unless you're in the kind of escalatory personal power struggle where you need to strongly align yourself with the ideal of the Great Hunter, you can generally coast by on a couple of purchases when you don't have a more pressing need on your plate. (And hey, being in a pack gives you an Aspiration to work toward and a Ban to potentially upgrade to Condition-level if Siskur-Dah isn't giving you enough Experiences.)

              Contrast Vampire, where you get Blood Potency for free on a long enough timescale and that's part of the issue, potentially exacerbated by an optional system that gives you a secondary Experience pool for Acting Vampirically.

              Contrast Mage, where you have a secondary Experience pool for raising Gnosis, you need to make some sort of potentially Anchor-altering breakthrough for each dot, cascade failure and sneaky drawbacks hide behind how easy it is to jump toward a higher rating, and unpredictable consequences from impulsive decisions are part of the point of the game.

              Contrast Promethean, where Azoth is mostly there to dump Vitriol Experiences into because holding onto them is risky and you can only buy Pilgrimage dots at certain times, but you can always drop your effective rating and your ability to spend a lot of Pyros directly feeds into the most consistent way to hit a universal milestone.

              Contrast Changeling, where every extra scrap of power you get from raising your Wyrd comes with higher odds of getting found out, and the main places where being able to spend and retain a lot of Glamour are also places where you're more at risk.

              Contrast Geist, where you get dots in Synergy for free by following your personal plots, there's a secondary Experience pool for raising it, and most of the benefits of the Trait are outright substitutable with collecting death bling.

              Contrast Mummy, where Sekhem starts high for free, goes down over time, and can only be raised without dying by skimming from the relic trade you exist to perpetuate.

              Contrast Demon, where you get dots for free by leaning into your ambitions of magical self-determination at the cost of making it harder to lay low without maintaining backup lives and/or conning people out of their identities.

              Contrast Beast, where you always have a Persistent Condition to play off of and the potential size of your Lair affects how fast you burn Satiety and all you otherwise have to show for the rating alone is maybe an extra Environmental Tilt to throw at people.

              Contrast Deviant, where you start at an Acclimation rating of 0, it can't go above 5, the very small number of things it does are vitally important, and the circumstances you can raise it in are tightly metered out.

              Primal Urge does a lot; it's definitely not overpriced just because certain playstyles don't favor raising it over other Traits. The game that Werewolf is enables it to be important, much like Code of Honor and Self-Control don't have to be useful to every table to justify their presence on the Merit list; for example, it's going to play a much bigger role in a Ghost Wolf game or other circumstance where access to the Shadow is thin on the ground.


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              • #8
                Originally posted by Aurumae View Post
                The regen scaling is super slow at the start. You only get to 2B at Primal Urge 4, 3B at 6, and then 4B, 5B, and 6B come at Primal Urge 8, 9, and 10, respectively. I feel like this could be better spaced out too, I would probably change it to an increase every odd primal urge.
                Yes, I'm sorry I wasn't clear but what I meant was that "we found the regeneration scaling slow." We changed it at our table so that it increased to 2B at 2, 3B at 4, 4B at 6, 5B at 8, and 6B at 10. Though the highest PC only got up to Primal Urge 5.

                See, I thought this would be the case when we started playing as well. But we're now over a year and 30 exp into our second Werewolf Chronicle and like I said, no one has bought Primal Urge. Getting to Primal Urge 6+ would certainly be nice but no one wants to pay the 25 exp entry fee, and there are other, cheaper ways for Werewolves to access attributes above 5
                Different tables will handle things different ways. Our game lasted a year and a half and we were all over Primal Urge, someone stayed at 1, I got to 5. There's a lot of Gifts and stuff that can be nicely worth investing in but Primal Urge offers some across the board and more passive benefits. The problem is these things may never show up. It's entirely possible a Storyteller will never have poison or disease be an issue, or enemies trying to pick them out of crowds, or get a lot of use out of Lunacy (which can be more weaponized in second edition), or have the opportunity to track down wolf-blooded. The same is with Gifts but they're generally cheaper allowing you to get one every other session or so rather than having to 'save up,' and it's easier to note a specific power that you're lacking in and want access to it than the subtler but more varied PU bonuses.

                Like I said, though, I do think the regeneration needed to be amped up.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Aurumae View Post
                  I think this might be something unique to our Storyteller's style, but we rarely have any sort of significant downtime. In our games going on a sacred hunt typically means not putting out some other fire, so essence tends to be quite scarce. I hadn't realized that dedicated locus generated quite that much essence, so that may be something we need to look into.
                  No one else has mentioned this, but it merits saying: sacred hunts aren't a downtime activity. While it'd be too much to have one going constantly, you should absolutely ask the ST for a few hours' downtime IG to regularly call a Sacred Hunt on whatever you're planning on tackling next. Even if your pack is nomadic and can't hammer down a dedicated locus, they should be able to make time to consecrate their pursuit of the next objective.


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                  • #10
                    Basically, when there is a fire to put out, you call a Sacred Hunt for it. Remember that the Sacred Hunt is not only for gaining Essence or unlocking new Gifts from spirits. It could be called on basically the pack may literally or symbolically hunt, for any reason they consider worthy (aka non-trivial).


                    I personally get the feeling people don't purchase Primal Urge in your game because they don't realise the value of it (especially Essence per turn) rather than it being bad. Werewolves have relatively many powers that are activated reflexively, and being able to activate more than one of them each turn (or activating a reflexive Facet when also using an instant action Facet) can make a huge difference in effectiveness.
                    Consider Gift of Rage. If the character enters Gauru for a fight they'd want to do so reflexively as to not lose their action (which costs an Essence if not at balanced Harmony), as well as activate Perfected Rage (which has to be done when entering Gauru). If they attack they'd definitely want to use Slaughterer, and if they are attacked in turn they'd want to use Berserker's Might (or upgrade their regeneration). That's a total of 3-4 Essence spent on only reflexive actions during a single turn. While you might not want to use all of those at the same time, you should definitely realise how important it can be to be able to spend at least two Essence per turn.
                    Then there's also Facets that costs more than an Essence to activate. Not being able to pay Essence for anything else during two (or more) turns really sucks.

                    The low amount of XP after a year's worth of playing doesn't help since having purchases be rarer can make players overly cautious when choosing what to purchase and they may default to what they know are good (primarily Renown, I guess) rather than purchases that might be better but they don't know for sure how relevant it's going to be in the game.

                    Between Aspirations (all four of them), Conditions (both resolutions and the extra beat thingy), Siskur-Dah (could potentially grant more Beats than all other Conditions together), and the end-of-session Beat, the players should really average more than one XP per session. There's also more conditional Beats gained from getting hurt in the last three Health boxes (requiring at least lethal for werewolves) and from voluntarily downgrading Failures to Dramatic Failures. If you feel like they earn too little XP even after using Siskur-Dah as intended, consider reminding them about Dramatic Failures (when appropriate), granting extra end-of-session Beats, and granting Beats for significant progress on Aspirations rather than only when fulfilling them.
                    Last edited by Tessie; 09-21-2020, 06:31 AM.


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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Aurumae View Post

                      What we've found is that it's usually only on the first couple of turns that you actually want to use essence during a fight. Once you've assumed the form you want and activated your buffs, you tend not to be spending much essence each and every turn, meaning it's there for healing. But even beyond that, we've found that Gauru is the primary means of healing during combat. Even if you can only hold the form for 3 turns, most combats just don't last long enough for this to be a huge issue (we had a massive fight with a Pure pack recently where everyone was in Gauru by the end, and it lasted about six rounds in total).



                      In a straight Clash of Wills, sure, but these are rare. Most of the time a Gift (or something like the Hunter's Aspect) will define that you are rolling Primal Urge + a resistance stat versus the attacker. In my experience the defender almost always loses these contests, and it's not hard to see why. You'll typically be rolling 2 stats (Primal Urge + a resistance stat) versus 3 of the attacker's stats (Attribute + Skill + Renown in the case of Werewolves). Even if the attacker is a brand-new character with no experiences, they're likely to have decent dice pools here: they likely have something like 3 + 3 + 2 or 8 dice in total to attack with. By contrast, the defender, even if they're depicted as being exceptionally composed or resolved or what have you (5 in the stat) still needs Primal Urge 3 to match the attacker.

                      And it actually gets worse as your Primal Urge goes up. For every dot you buy of Primal Urge, the attacker can buy a dot of the relevant skill and a dot of the relevant renown for the same cost, meaning every potential dice you add is offset by 2 of theirs



                      These are all nice to have, but I'm not convinced that they are worth the cost, particularly in the face of buying a skill dot plus a renown with the same exp.



                      I'll admit, I don't think Hunter's Aspect has ever come up in our games, but Primal Urge's use in defending against it is not convincing for the reasons I gave above. Boosting the duration on an exceptional success is certainly nice, but again, I think I would rather have 2 additional dice by boosting my renown + skill.



                      Is the prey failing a lunacy check really a good thing? One outcome is that they run away, which is usually good. The other two equally likely outcomes are that they go berserk and attack you or become much easier for spirits to possess, which are both bad unless you were looking for an excuse to murder them.



                      I think this might be something unique to our Storyteller's style, but we rarely have any sort of significant downtime. In our games going on a sacred hunt typically means not putting out some other fire, so essence tends to be quite scarce. I hadn't realized that dedicated locus generated quite that much essence, so that may be something we need to look into.



                      I think it's really Primal Urge 2 and 3 that are the problems. No one wants a 10 exp tax before the stat starts being useful. Honestly, I think part of my issue is that I compare it with Blood Potency, which is very well incentivized, especially at the lower levels. There are some things here that I hadn't considered, but I still don't think I'm going to spend my character's next 5 exp buying up their Primal Urge when there are a lot of other things I would like them to do first.
                      Werewolf uses primal + renown for clash of wills.
                      See pag 115

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Neos01 View Post

                        Werewolf uses primal + renown for clash of wills.
                        See pag 115
                        This is true, but the Clash of Wills rules only come up in some situations. It's kind of a catch-all for cases where there is no other dice pool. Most "offensive" Gifts explicitly state what the defender should roll. For example, Primal Allure (p122) states that the dice pool is Manipulation + Subterfuge + Cunning versus Resolve + Primal Urge

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