Gauru Form Question

[Warriorshaman]

The question is this: In gauru form, under the section Primal Fears: In normal combat, prey count only their wits or dexterity to their defense... etc. They may not add their appropriate skills (normaly athletic) to it.

Is thei a feature only affecting lessercreatures, or everyone ?

It is written under the section: Primal fear... wich may imply that it is under the supernatural fear only, that it does apply.
However, under that same section, it is written that it is under normal combat, wich imply it is not down and dirty combat.

Wich is fine, but if I face a supernatural creature, that is not afraid at all of the Gauru, does that falls under the normal combat rules, wich remove the athletic score of the defense score. Does my supernatural enemy with 8 defense, falls down to 4 when facing a gauru, but would remain at 8 facing the others ?

Thanks.

[Neos01]

I think that Primal fear is some kind of fear inducing mental power, so only creature that can defend against such things should be able to negate it

[Acrozatarim]

Primal Fear works against all opponents, and there's no particular way of shielding against it; you're up against a fragment of a god of the hunt, channeling the killing power of that eldritch deity.

And yes, Primal Fear only applies against Gauru-form attackers; you get to add your skill to Defense against any other attackers present as normal.

[Dark Archon]

Primal Fear works against all opponents, and there's no particular way of shielding against it; you're up against a fragment of a god of the hunt, channeling the killing power of that eldritch deity.

And yes, Primal Fear only applies against Gauru-form attackers; you get to add your skill to Defense against any other attackers present as normal.

I don't want to create new thread, so instead I'll ask here: who are "lesser enemies" in the Primal Fear? What does "most humans" constitute for the purpose of this rules? Do hunters with silver weapons count? Humans with supernatural weapons? Mages? Do Gauru kill all those with Down and Dirty combat rules?

[Neos01]

I don't want to create new thread, so instead I'll ask here: who are "lesser enemies" in the Primal Fear? What does "most humans" constitute for the purpose of this rules? Do hunters with silver weapons count? Humans with supernatural weapons? Mages? Do Gauru kill all those with Down and Dirty combat rules?

I think that the best solution is everyone that the GM considers a "red shirt" from a narrative point of view

[nofather]

I don't want to create new thread, so instead I'll ask here: who are "lesser enemies" in the Primal Fear? What does "most humans" constitute for the purpose of this rules? Do hunters with silver weapons count? Humans with supernatural weapons? Mages? Do Gauru kill all those with Down and Dirty combat rules?

Very dependent upon the situation. A newly changed werewolf might not consider a hunter with a silver weapon a lesser enemy. But an experienced warrior of the Garmir who's taken hundreds of hits from silver weapons in their lifetime wielded by more powerful entities than humans might. Sometimes a simple Gift can make the difference, turning off the lights in a room can blind an entire cell of hunters leaving them fumbling while the werewolf retains its full perception.

An easy way to look at it would be like Neos01 says, 'red shirts' or if you're from Exalted 'extras.' It speeds up combat when you don't want to, say, roll for every one of the dozen Rank 1 spirits in the room, plus it offers some advantage over things like action economy, while still letting the werewolf face what seems like overwhelming odds.

[Dark Archon]

Very dependent upon the situation.

Are there any guidelines how to distinguish on said situation? I mean, this is basically "whatever, up to ST" answer, but how ST should decide on this rule in the absence of prior knowledge? For example, Gift can turn off the lights, but hunters have flashlights. Is it fine to resolve this with Down and Dirty, if they very well could turn them on in the next round and shred werewolf with silver bullets and white phosphorus?

An easy way to look at it would be like Neos01 says, 'red shirts' or if you're from Exalted 'extras.' It speeds up combat when you don't want to, say, roll for every one of the dozen Rank 1 spirits in the room, plus it offers some advantage over things like action economy, while still letting the werewolf face what seems like overwhelming odds.

But numerical advantage can turn off the tide of battle. Individually, each of Rank 1 spirit may not have a chance, but together, they can hope to overwhelm the werewolf if they are able to deal enough lethal damage in the round. Facing overwhelming odds should be precisely reason not to use Primal Fear - otherwise those odds are not overwhelming by fact.

[nofather]

Are there any guidelines how to distinguish on said situation? I mean, this is basically "whatever, up to ST" answer, but how ST should decide on this rule in the absence of prior knowledge? For example, Gift can turn off the lights, but hunters have flashlights. Is it fine to resolve this with Down and Dirty, if they very well could turn them on in the next round and shred werewolf with silver bullets and white phosphorus?

There's no specific guideline that I've seen, no, beyond 'most humans, spirits of lower Rank, and non-supernatural animals', it's a very specific sort of situation. Not every hunter cell is going to be carrying flashlights with them into a fight with their silver-ammo machine guns in their other hand and WP missile launchers in their third, and if they are their dicepools are going to be weakened enough by the werewolf still having its Defense vs firearms or their weapons could be crippled by Gifts anyhow. But if they are so capably armed, then you might not consider them lesser enemies, since you're building them more to kill the PC than form an obstacle.

But numerical advantage can turn off the tide of battle. Individually, each of Rank 1 spirit may not have a chance, but together, they can hope to overwhelm the werewolf if they are able to deal enough lethal damage in the round. Facing overwhelming odds should be precisely reason not to use Primal Fear - otherwise those odds are not overwhelming by fact.

Yes, that's mostly due to action economy, and is purely a mechanical thing, especially given the full regeneration every round. A werewolf only has one turn against however many opponents you put them up against, even though realistically a werewolf who slices through weak enemies pretty easily shouldn't have an issue with it. But gauru can allow you to beat overwhelming numbers like that, because it's a lousy call to have PCs killed by a bunch of mundane cats.

[Dark Archon]

There's no specific guideline that I've seen, no, it's a very specific sort of situation.

I wouldn't say that Werewolf fighting in Gauru is very specific sort of situation. In fact, I fully expect to have that question almost every time werewolf or his pack enters combat - are their enemies "lesser ones or not"?

even though realistically a werewolf who slices through weak enemies pretty easily shouldn't have an issue with it. But gauru can allow you to beat overwhelming numbers like that, because it's a lousy call to have PCs killed by a bunch of mundane cats.

I think realistically numbers are great force multiplier, making even weak enemies much more dangerous. But again, Primal Fear doesn't suggest how that force multiplier affects things, having no guidelines on "lesser enemies".

[nofather]

I wouldn't say that Werewolf fighting in Gauru is very specific sort of situation. In fact, I fully expect to have that question almost every time werewolf or his pack enters combat - are their enemies "lesser ones or not"?

What makes for lesser enemies is what's specific, not just fighting in gauru.

I think realistically numbers are great force multiplier, making even weak enemies much more dangerous. But again, Primal Fear doesn't suggest how that force multiplier affects things, having no guidelines on "lesser enemies".

Just 'most humans, spirits of lower Rank, and non-supernatural animals'. But what makes a lower Rank depends on the werewolf.

While numbers can add up, it can also just lead to a slog. If 12 cats can't overcome Defense and regeneration, then the next turn 11 cats likely won't. And 10 are less likely to. And you still have 9 more combat turns after that to just fight through one by one.

[Dark Archon]

Just 'most humans, spirits of lower Rank, and non-supernatural animals'. But what makes a lower Rank depends on the werewolf.

Well, and having a guidelines on what constitutes "most humans" or "lower Rank" would be good, both for players and ST. Like "if combatants cannot inflict enough lethal or aggravated damage to harm werewolf in Gauru form, they are considered lesser enemies". But no such luck, I guess.

[nofather]

Well, and having a guidelines on what constitutes "most humans" or "lower Rank" would be good, both for players and ST. Like "if combatants cannot inflict enough lethal or aggravated damage to harm werewolf in Gauru form, they are considered lesser enemies". But no such luck, I guess.

If those are the guidelines you want to use then you should adopt them. Though being two ranks above a spirit means a werewolf inflicts aggravated damage to them with their natural weapons so you might use '2' as enough to count for lower rank, and a werewolf who's willing to eat people can do the same to humans, so you might want to factor that in.

[BinAly]

Well, and having a guidelines on what constitutes "most humans" or "lower Rank" would be good, both for players and ST. Like "if combatants cannot inflict enough lethal or aggravated damage to harm werewolf in Gauru form, they are considered lesser enemies". But no such luck, I guess.

It seems to me that you are on point here.

I think the main goal of Primal Fear and Down and Dirty combat is to avoid slowing down the game on combat scenes that the players will win for sure. Rolling dice when you already know the outcome is the definition of boring. In my games I usually know the average dice-pool of the antagonists, and how many there are. If even with all the antagonists aiming on the same target they can't generate enough damage to cause aggravated (Gauru regenerates all damage except for aggravated), then I treat them as lesser threats.

So, in short, if the enemies can't cause aggravated damage (be it from silver, supernatural powers, of sheer amount of damage in one single turn), they are always lesser enemies.

Worth mentioning that when I'm using Down and Dirty combat against enemies that can cause aggravated (specially humans with silver), I consider successes rolled by the antagonists as aggravated damage to be divided between the players, even if the players win the roll. We then narrate together the events of the combat, and why some of them took the damage.

[Tessie]

The Down and Dirty part of Primal Fear is fundamentally flawed and should be ignored, imo.

Down and Dirty is almost always advantageous for the lesser opponent because it can't account for all the extra factors (such as regeneration) that the superior party has at their disposal, and instead condenses it down into a single opposed roll. For Down and Dirty to be granted as an "advantage" for the Gauru form makes zero sense because it's the very much the opposite in almost all cases.
Despite that I very much do recommend Down and Dirty for inconsequential fights in Gauru, but that's because Down and Dirty is already supposed to be used for such fights. Because of that, the net effect of Primal Fear is that the system you're already recommended to use is implied to be mandatory rather than optional.

The only part of Primal Fear that should've been printed is that of the impaired Defense.

[BinAly]

The Down and Dirty part of Primal Fear is fundamentally flawed and should be ignored, imo.

Despite that I very much do recommend Down and Dirty for inconsequential fights in Gauru, but that's because Down and Dirty is already supposed to be used for such fights. Because of that, the net effect of Primal Fear is that the system you're already recommended to use is implied to be mandatory rather than optional.

The only part of Primal Fear that should've been printed is that of the impaired Defense.

I agree with Tessie here. Down and Dirty is a tool for the storyteller, not at all an advantage for the players.