Is WtF 2E line incomplete?

[wyrdhamster]

And I mean in most basic, fundamental way of running most basic chronicle of WtF 2E, where you got all the tools to prepare it smoothly as Storyteller.

I feel that in Werewolf 2E line we do not have proper support for 2 of 5 their main Tribes antagonists, even now, with Shunned by the Moon. Namely. Spirit-Ridden/Claimed and Hosts do not have proper mechanics in 2E to run them as antagonists for Hunters in Darkness and Storm Lords characters - you just got bunch of random examples for them in Shunned, not detailing any more concrete, like powers or banishing/fighting tactics. At least Pure got their new powers in supplement...

[Heavy Arms]

It's definitely common... Ian Watson made up a chart to post into threads, Twitter, Discord, etc. to quickly summarize who owns what of Onyx Path's products because he's addressed this so many times.

[monteparnas]

I don't know, while I can't say for sure because I don't read about this stuff in many other places, it wouldn't surprise me that this is really a common misunderstanding and statement. I've had this doubt for quite some time myself in the past.


But yeah, although I won't say this is clear-cut (licensing contracts rarely are), the fact is that OPP doesn't have or ever had ownership of the IP in any capacity.

As I said, though, License agreements are rarely that clear cut, so it doesn't means they don't have some limited power over it in case of a conflict. It would be worst case scenario, though, for both parties.

[Heavy Arms]

Where are people saying that? Because the Onyx Path folks are usually pretty quick to shut that down if they see it. They don't have any ownership of the IP.

[Lyrics Of War]

It is mostly correct if you put a "relatively" in the middle.

OPP doesn't have free reign, but in practice they've been given considerable freedom.

This isn't guaranteed to continued, but for the time being is expected to.

What I mean is, usually people tell me that they have a measure of ownership over the IP

[monteparnas]

Thanks for clearing that up. People consistently tell me onyx path has free reign with chronicles.

It is mostly correct if you put a "relatively" in the middle.

OPP doesn't have free reign, but in practice they've been given considerable freedom.

This isn't guaranteed to continued, but for the time being is expected to.

[Lyrics Of War]

No argument with your general thesis, but this part is incorrect. OPP don’t have freedom to do whatever they want with CoD. Everything has to be approved by Paradox, each step of the way. Pitches, outlines, drafts, art, final book etc, Paradox has the right to veto or request changes.

Thanks for clearing that up. People consistently tell me onyx path has free reign with chronicles.

[Newb95]

I want to note that, as far as I saw it, the theory that they're joining the two lines comes mainly from people that don't actually know both lines.

V5 used a lot of ideas original from Requiem. It also implemented a lot of new ideas. As far as it goes, though, it is undoubtedly Masquerade, and only someone with no idea about how a Vampire game that isn't Masquerade can be would mistake it for a mashing with Requiem.

The same goes for Werewolf. The current arrangement basically lets OPP do whatever they want with CoD and Paradox get a share, but otherwise they're not putting their own resources on it. So CoD is only harmed in the sense that OPP doesn't have the resources to make as many books in the current market as we'd like.

Would I want Paradox to put their money and attention on CoD, too? Looking at how they work, no, I'm fine.

This, I've played a few games of V5 and while they took a few elements from requiem like the touchstones, they are also fundamentaly different games, mechanics wise V5 doesn't have blood points anymore and uses an hunger system for example. I think that the lower influx of WtF book has to due with popularity more than anything else, lets face it, who has more players, forsaken or requiem? I don't know the numbers but I saw more vampire and mage games than forsaken...

[Bunyip]

That's what I meant with basically

Ah, then I misunderstood what you meant. Apologies.

[monteparnas]

No argument with your general thesis, but this part is incorrect. OPP don’t have freedom to do whatever they want with CoD. Everything has to be approved by Paradox, each step of the way. Pitches, outlines, drafts, art, final book etc, Paradox has the right to veto or request changes.

That's what I meant with basically, but I should have been more clear. It's more that currently they won't interfere much, but they surely can. And as you said, they're not simply not paying attention, as they have to approve everything at most steps.

Paradox and OPP have a staggering difference in resources, and we are going through a terrible period for economy everywhere, so the apparent slow pace on publication have very clear explanations.

[Tessie]

I think it's more likely that OPP just doesn't have the resources* to develop books for all twelve games at the same time. It was less noticable while they were working on the first second edition updates, but as more and more games were updated (or created)...
Dark Eras and Contagion Chronicle also complicates the issue since they're technically for all gamelines at the same time so there has been some work for Werewolf even if it's not in the shape of a dedicated book.

*by resources I mean anything from money, to personell to supervise multiple parallell development cycles, to number of available writers at a time
Edit: or good book pitches, but that's probably highly related to their available writers as I suspect most book pitches comes from them

[Bunyip]

The current arrangement basically lets OPP do whatever they want with CoD and Paradox get a share.

No argument with your general thesis, but this part is incorrect. OPP don’t have freedom to do whatever they want with CoD. Everything has to be approved by Paradox, each step of the way. Pitches, outlines, drafts, art, final book etc, Paradox has the right to veto or request changes.

[monteparnas]

I want to note that, as far as I saw it, the theory that they're joining the two lines comes mainly from people that don't actually know both lines.

V5 used a lot of ideas original from Requiem. It also implemented a lot of new ideas. As far as it goes, though, it is undoubtedly Masquerade, and only someone with no idea about how a Vampire game that isn't Masquerade can be would mistake it for a mashing with Requiem.

The same goes for Werewolf. The current arrangement basically lets OPP do whatever they want with CoD and Paradox get a share, but otherwise they're not putting their own resources on it. So CoD is only harmed in the sense that OPP doesn't have the resources to make as many books in the current market as we'd like.

Would I want Paradox to put their money and attention on CoD, too? Looking at how they work, no, I'm fine.

[ArcaneArts]

The problem I have with these conspiracy theories everytime it comes up is that...well, it's conspiratorial versus what actually makes sense.

If Paradox really wanted to can Chronicles so it could then freely pirate it for the new World of Darkness products....they'd just do that. With how upfront they've always been about the prioritzation of World over Chronicles, it's weird to think about them going just one step beyond and just not continuing in the trend. It'd also make any Chroniclization of World easier to argue about, because without an ongoing gameline of interest, it's easier to say "So since that's over, let's take what worked and use it over here."

Although if the conversation around the games is any indictator, the established fanbase they're trying to keep while reaching out isn't neccesarily crazy about it, since token efforts that can be called that tend to be poorly implemented and is also signalling that Paradox doesn't quite value the same thing as the established base, which is already more rickety than it should be.

Anyways and again, the logistics that are on the page, between there still being a massive backlog of CHronicles material that still need to be finished and shipped, the change in the availability of writers and developers in regards to the affairs of the past few years, and Werewolf being a pretty comprehensive gameline across it's two editions is still the more plausible of explanations. Anything else just begs why they wouldn't be more direct about it, considering there's no particular reason not to be.

[Lyrics Of War]

Don't get me wrong, I'm as keen as anyone that we want more Forsaken stuff out there, and frustrated that it's not happening. However, I don't think it's because Paradox is trying to dovetail Forsaken into Apocalypse, I just think it's because they have a clearly stated focus and aren't overly interested beyond that focus.

That's just my opinion. Who knows, I could be proven wrong.

I can believe that aswell. If apocalypse is changing gears to a darker tone that F1 has anyway, and F2 is the god slayers game then it’s like the best of both worlds for me really. Had me a good think on it last night. (I’d also like to see the Egypt dark era expanded into its own book but ya know.)