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Werewolf's "ghost"?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by StSword View Post
    There's another take you might consider.

    Werewolves age half as fast as normal people, and it's believed that increasing primal urge slows that down even further.

    So elder werewolves spend more and more time in the hisil and become more and more spirit like.

    So, what if your "werewolf ghost" is an elder werewolf who became a full spirit instead of dying?

    In second sight one storyline was about a spell that turned an occultist into a spirit. If a spiritually null human can achieve it, a werewolf, who is halfway there to begin with, certainly ought to be able to do it.
    See also: ancestor spirits and the seeming in-universe confusion between the Firstborn and the First Pack.


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    • #17
      Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post
      Likewise, humans seem to be the only things that leave ghosts after they die.
      Not true. Buildings, animals, even geographic features can leave ghosts behind when destroyed or killed. Ghosts are semi-psychic in nature - if enough people remember something, and its loss was especially traumatic, it makes a Ghost.


      Dave Brookshaw, Mage and Deviant Developer, writer of many things

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      • #18
        Not to be argumentative, but according to pg. 215 of the GMC Ghosts are defined as dead humans. Ghostly reflections of places and things exist in the Underworld (as per Book of the Dead, and following your guidelines), but that wouldn't be the same thing as a Ghost, not in the context being discussed here. Unless it's changed in IC, dead Werewolves don't create Ghosts.


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        • #19
          Originally posted by Ephsy View Post

          Lore of the Forsaken, pg19; Predators pg64.
          Thank You.
          Not that I thought that Ancestor Spirits were Ghosts (I don't), but I was looking for clarification on your second point (the amalgamation of an Entire Line).
          I will peruse the references provided.


          The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary. - James. D. Nicoll

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Tymeaus Jalynsfein View Post

            Thank You.
            Not that I thought that Ancestor Spirits were Ghosts (I don't), but I was looking for clarification on your second point (the amalgamation of an Entire Line).
            I will peruse the references provided.

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            • #21
              Just was not something I remembered reading, and wanted sources so I could look them up. There is no need for malicious intent for sources to be inaccurate. Happens all the time. The Internet is a vast place, and not all sources are created equally. No offense was intended.


              The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary. - James. D. Nicoll

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Darksider View Post
                Not to be argumentative, but according to pg. 215 of the GMC Ghosts are defined as dead humans. Ghostly reflections of places and things exist in the Underworld (as per Book of the Dead, and following your guidelines), but that wouldn't be the same thing as a Ghost, not in the context being discussed here. Unless it's changed in IC, dead Werewolves don't create Ghosts.
                Be that as it may, but some books contradict that.

                There's a literal ghost town in one book, complete with numina, and it exists in twilight.

                There's another story that has a ghost road, a dead end.

                Second Sight suggests that if the ST wants, spirits can become ghosts, and ghosts might become spirits.

                ​ And if we're using "ghosts have to be human first so werewolves need not apply" than the vampire ghost in night horrors and the ghost mages in the mage core book are a problem.

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                • #23
                  Yep, there are ghosts that weren't human before. Objects can leave ghosts behind as can places. Some are even somewhat sentient. Ghost mages are definetly a thing (but among all the supernatural creatures are arguably the most human), vampire ghosts appear here and there in some official books, and the concept is too cool not to use it. Werewolves being half-spirit, and spirit-ghost being most of the time mutually exclusive states (except for Geist hybrids) makes it more complicated, but they are also part human, so why not? In the worst case they become some sort of wolf geist.


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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Thorbes View Post
                    In the worst case they become some sort of wolf geist.
                    It's exaclty what I was proposing.


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                    • #25
                      In my take on the CofD, I like to imply that the forsaken tribes sometimes have their own afterlives beliefs in the vein of the Fired Touched one, and in fact may have started the stories in response to the fire touched.

                      If they exist, they are the personal Shadow Kingdoms of the Forsaken First Born, which I make by mashing together the appropriate WtA umbra realms. Red Wolf's domain/ The Iron Master afterlife (I like to call it "The City" but in first tongue), for example, is sort of a mash up of the more high tech umbra realms, with the Glass Walker and Bone Gnawer homelands turning into the "residential" sections of the Iron Master afterlife and the Cyber Realm and Scar becoming the commercial and industrial sectors/"hunting ground" (the more dangerous humans are literally there to be hunted, any Iron master that gets "killed" on one these eternal hunts just wakes up in their apartment or penthouse in the home and instead of Wyrm and Weaver Spirits running things as the Barons of industry such, it's red wolf and his council of his 2nd born wolf spirit children and the greatest heroes of the Iron Masters.

                      And when I said the humans in the not-Scar and not-cyber-realm exist to be hunted, I mean that humans killed in an Iron Master Sacred Hunt wind up in those areas of Red Wolf's domain, to be hunted and killed again and again for all eternity. Human and wolf-blooded packmates of Iron Masters, on the other hand, wind up "living" with their Uratha packmates in the residential areas.

                      The other forsaken tribes have something similar going on.

                      I am trying to come with cool names for the neighborhoods that sound cool in first tongue.


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                      • #26
                        The young man in the cafe Well, considering Firstborns are rank 7 and basically near infinite essence, and 5 dots in influence is "Mass Create" they indeed can have huge "places-that-aren't" realms hidden deeply in the Shadow. Hell, some legends even hint at those, and how the would be Forsaken had to get there to truck with their would be eventual totems.

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                        • #27
                          I'm under the impression that ghosts are more of an emotional resonance so intense that it takes on a form of its own, reenacting that emotion (and the trauma that created it) over and over with varying degrees of sophistication.

                          ​For this story I would skip the whole question of werewolf ghosts and do they have an afterlife (personally I figure either the Anima Mundi, or wherever in the deep shadow spirits go when forced to discorporate). Instead I would create something symbolic, similar to a ghost's anchor, say a throne made from the skulls of the were-bears he killed with his corpse still seated upon it (trapped in Gauru representing the unnatural nature of the werewolf's trapped spirit) and then have the werewolf (just as written on his character sheet) trapped in Twilight, unable to enter the Hisil or manifest away from his throne. Instead he is dependent upon his gifts and his own form of Sacred Hunt (which makes him all too real to his prey) to effect the material world.
                          In the end to defeat him the players have to kick over his throne, spilling his mummified corpse onto the ground where it returns to human form and his spirit goes screaming (or gratefully) to wherever werewolf spirits go.

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                          • #28
                            My fanon:
                            High Harmony werewolves leave ghosts, but in the Hisil. Such ghosts may become stranger things over time.
                            Low Harmony werewolves become spirits.
                            Harmony 5 is the werewolf equivalent of Integrity 10 for a human, leaving nothing behind.


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                            • #29
                              It's also possible that a powerful-enough werewolf, perhaps slain while attempting a Sacred Hunt, could leave a ghost and a spirit. That's certainly the idea that I'm going to run with in my Forsaken game.


                              "Nihhina kalekal-zidu kal masun, kal manudanadu. Nihhina kalekal-zidu nukal shaghu-desasudu — nihhina kalekal-zidu kal innu-desasudu udhkal samm." Arthur Ashe
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                              • #30
                                If a werewolf could leave a ghost or a spirit under the same circumstances (if there's an overlap in Harmony requirements, for example) it'd actually be weird if they wouldn't be able to leave both at the same time. Ghosts are not direct continuations of people. Ghosts don't even necessarily require people to die. While undoubtedly rare a ghost could spring into existence from a near-death experience.
                                But then there's also all the weird stuff that just happens. Occurrences that just don't follow the rules.


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