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  • Fixed and Houseruled Werewolf Forms (1st ed)

    As it currently stands, the primary offender is the Gauru form which is touted as the "War Form" yet comes with intrinsic drawbacks that cause it to be shunned over the more popular Urshul form.

    Current drawbacks of Gauru form are as follows

    1) Usable only once per scene
    2) Short duration
    2) Requires Resolve + Composure roll to allow short, simple phrases and failure means death rage.
    3) Can speak First Tongue but has no chance to really use it due to issue #2
    4) Can track by scent which is useless unless actively trying to pummel someone who just hid in the middle of a fight
    5) Gifts and fetishes usage limited to reflexive, attack-supplementing enhancers
    6) Inability to use complex tools to such an extent that even Axes are dubious
    7) Resolve + Composure each turn to perform a non-combat action, failure means death rage

    I would like to give special thanks to LOOK, CrimsonShadows, Rahuman101, and Furry for contributing major discussion into different ideas and benefits, and everyone else who analyzed, critiqued, and helped tweak as necessary. This thread is complete, but still open to suggestions if a better idea comes along.

    Revised Werewolf Forms:

    Hishu
    Hishu: +2 Perception

    Werewolves are always portrayed as having preternaturally excellent senses, even in their normal human state. However, as is they gain little in that field. This leads to the "everyone pick Partial Change" problem. So I give them a little boost, it helps.

    Dalu
    Dalu: 9-again on strength rolls, Can deal lethal damage unarmed

    Dalu is a pretty solid form, their best for martial combat by a mile. If they are using guns or fighting styles this is the form a Werewolf will spend most of their time fighting in. The 9-again addition is a common house rule, used to accentuate the sheer strength Werewolves possess. Lethal unarmed is just common sense, I mean, the form practically has claws. By making this allowance it further counters the necessity of Partial Change

    Urshul
    Urshul: 9-again on strength rolls, use the higher of Wits or Dexterity for defense

    Urshul is, currently, probably a Werewolf's "best" close combat form. It is fast as hell, has good defense and health, deals lethal damage and doesn't cause you to lose your damn mind. None of this is the fault of Urshul form itself (I think the form is perfect for its intended purpose). I try to use changes to bring out Urshul's defensive nature, it is a pack form, best when used together with other quick wolves to harry and pursue their prey. Thus the improved defense.

    Urhan
    Urhan: Use the higher of Wits or Dexterity for defense

    Urhan is, probably, the least used form. Best for stalking in the wilderness or tracking prey. Its bonuses are fairly defensive and its penalties make it less desireable than Urshul or Dalu for combat. Even so it has a solid place in the theme and styling of Forsaken, and clear applications within play.

    Gauru
    New Gauru Form:

    Attribute Bonuses: +3 Strength, +1 Dexterity, +2 Stamina, +2 Size, +4 Health, +4 Speed, +1 Initiative, +3 Perception. Gains [Prima Urge/2]/[Primal Urge/2] Natural Armor with the bulletproof property, this armor stacks with armor generated by magical sources. (Rounded up, Silver does NOT ignore this armor). He may also use the higher of his Dexterity and Wits when determining his defense.

    Natural Weaponry: +2 Lethal Damage Bite Attack, +1 Lethal Damage Claw attack. While in Gauru form the character benefits from the 8-again rule on all strength related rolls, including brawl attacks.

    Endurance: While in Gauru Form a Werewolf suffers no wound penalties no matter how severe until a wound is marked in their right most Health box. Stamina Rolls to remain concious aren't made when a bashing wound is marked in the Werewolf's rightmost Health box. When lethal damage is marked in the Werewolf's rightmost Health Box he does not collapse. Instead he may either spend a point of Essence to automatically shift down (and collapse) or fly immediately into Death Rage. Once in Death Rage the Gauru wolf will not collapse until all his health boxes are filled with Aggravated damage.

    Lunacy: Gauru Form enduces Lunacy in mortal viewers with no bonus to their resistance.

    Mental Modifiers: -2 to resist Death Rage. Automatically fail all mental or social rolls with the exception of Resolve, Composure and Intimidation rolls. All attempts to magically influence the Werewolf, either mentally or socially, take a -3 penalty due to his more primal mindset. In Death Rage, this penalty increases to -5.

    Combat Focus: Must succeed a reflexive [Resolve+Composure] roll to perform an action not directly related to combat, or speak in any language other than First Tongue. Actions that further combat, such as aggressive gifts or fetishes, buffing, rearming, or reestablishing surprise do not require a roll.

    Weapons and Styles: While in Gauru form a Werewolf cannot use any tools or maneuvers that require finesse. Simple savage weaponry, such as improvised weaponry, mauls, swords, and axes are basic enough that the Werewolf can still recall their application. Certain fighting styles, those based around uncontrolled savagry, may be applied in combat with Storyteller approvial.

    Duration: A werewolf can maintain a controlled fury for [Harmony+Primal Urge] actions. For every successive action past that time limit he must succeed on a reflexive [Resolve+Composure-3], or spend a point of Essence to reflexively shift down. Failure on this roll causes the Werewolf to fall fully into Death Rage. During times when the moon is in the Werewolf's auspice phase, add the characters dots in their auspice renown to the duration of their Gauru form.
    Last edited by Dessembrae; 11-04-2013, 03:29 PM.

  • #2
    The only thing I still miss is the rework for Primal Form, but I don't know if that should be listed in this thread or the coming Fixed and Houseruled Gifts thread.
    I know Look devised something in post #160 of the Forms thread on the old forum, but as you replied there, I don't know how balanced it is.

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    • #3
      I did not include Primal Form in this thread as it was not included in the counterpart on the other forum either. My main reasoning is because Primal Form, while a werewolf form, is not a default form and more of a gift. As such, it deserves to be in the other thread.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Dessembrae View Post
        I did not include Primal Form in this thread as it was not included in the counterpart on the other forum either. My main reasoning is because Primal Form, while a werewolf form, is not a default form and more of a gift. As such, it deserves to be in the other thread.
        And now they are.


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        • #5
          Much obliged

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          • #6
            bump to see if can get a sticky like before

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            • #7
              Topic stickied.


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              • #8
                Edited title.


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                • #9
                  Hi everyone,
                  I think this house rule is indeed in the right direction and I´m pretty sure that white-wolf fucked up everything in the Forsaken´s forms. It seems they look for balance with other venues, but it lacks some internal coherence, which I will try to comment below.

                  Regarding Dessembrae´s house rules I have to say it became VERY overpower. Even more than Apocalypse´s forms.
                  Statiscally speaking, for 9-again in dice pools with 10 or more dices, it becomes more likely to have more one suxx than adding one dice to the dice pool. And, as the dice pools grows further, 9-again will equals to add two, three and so on dices on the original dice pool. Just have in mind that firstchanged Uratha already have massive dice pools.
                  8-again rule is even worse.
                  There are other things that changed the purpose of the Uratha´s forms.

                  So, I will try to keep myself as close as possible to white-wolf´s forms just fixing the coherence with WoD core rulebook and other Forsaken books. All of them seems much more wellmade and cohenrent than Forsaken´s core rulebook.

                  The red text is the modified from the standard version of the core rule book.


                  I´m also working on a bonus to grapple and climb when using forms with claws.


                  Unofficial "Consistent" Werewolf Forms:


                  Hishu
                  Hishu: -2 penalty to detect as supernatural creature

                  Hishu is meant to be as close as possible to human. That´s the reason the penalty to discover a uratha in this form as a supernatural being.



                  Urhan
                  Urhan: Use the higher of Wits or Dexterity for defense. STR+2, Dex +1, Sta +1, Size -1, Initiative +1, Speed +5, Perception +4 • Bite +2L • -2 penalty to detect as supernatural creature • Human speech impossible • Can communicate with wolves (-1 to -3 penalty until familiar) • Limited use of First Tongue (Complex ideas: Man + Expression) • Track by scent

                  Urhan is supposed to be a wolf. An average new character should match an average wolf in a fight. The average wolf´s attributes from the Book of the Wolf/ WoD Core rule book are STR 4, DEX 3, STA 3. The average phisical attributes of a new character is STR 2,3, DEX 2,3, and STA 2,3. Yes, it´s fractional. So str was underrated and dex overhated. Dessembrae´s defence applies because of WoD core rulebook rules for animals.
                  It turned out to be slower, but stronger. Speed was also inconsistent and overpowered, but remains the same. Species modifier of the WoD core rulebook a dog/wolf is 7, not 8. So the speed modifier to Urhan must be 2+2+1=5. Originally, dex was +2 and speed was +5, resulting on a species modifier of +3. That is, species modifier +8.





                  Gauru


                  Attribute Bonuses: He may also use the higher of his Dexterity and Wits when determining his defense.Str +4, Dex +1, Sta +3, Size +2, Health +5, Initiative +1, Speed +5, +3 Perception.+200-250 lbs mass, +2-3’ height. • Full Lunacy • Armor 1/1 • Claws +2LBite +3L (No grapple required) • Ignore wound penalties • No unconsciousness rolls • -4 penalty to resist Kuruth • Manipulation = 0, most Social and Mental tasks fail • Must attack an enemy, travel toward one, or take out frustration.Resolve + Composure (Reflexive) required to do anything else, failure means Kuruth. Gifts and fetishes (Reflexive) excepted • Maximum time in Gauru: Stamina (Hishu) + PU (+Auspice renown if under Auspice moon). Afterward must revert to Hishu, or make Sta + Survival + PU / spend Essence for alternate form • May shift out of Gauru voluntarily if not subject to Kuruth • May not voluntarily assume Gauru again for remainder of scene



                  Mental Modifiers: Automatically fail all mental or social rolls with the exception of Resolve, Composure and Intimidation rolls. All attempts to magically influence the Werewolf, either mentally or socially, take a -3 penalty due to his more primal mindset. In Death Rage, this penalty increases to -5.

                  [i]The gauru form is supposed to be even stronger than Urshul, So STR +4. The bonus of dex remains the same because he legs and arms are more animal like than human like and his nature is of a beast/animal mixed with human.
                  The head is the same of the Urshul, so Bite +3L. The gauru is suppose to be more beast-like than animal-like. The claws most follow this and follow the fact that a gauru is big. The claw must also be much bigger than a wolf´s claw. They should have the same size of a bear´s claw but almost as sharp as a Great Cat´s claw. So Claw +2L.
                  The gauru falls under full rage, so it doesn´t make sense to have the same Sta than Urshul, his health and toughness are boosted. So Sta +3.
                  Dessembrae´s mental modifier is kept to make sense with the Death Rage rule. It makes no sense a character spending Willpower neutralize the Kuruth´s "will". It is a beast. And there´s is nothing that can driven it out. Also, gauru´s rage is almost a Kuruth state of mind. So the bonuses to mental modifiers.
                  By this same reason, gauru´s rage must be closer to Kuruth. Only a penality of -2 to resist is non sense. It also balances the gauru form and doesn´t make it so overpower. People will think twice until taking this form.




                  Urshul
                  Urshul: use the higher of Wits or Dexterity for defense. Str +3, Dex +1, Sta +2, Manip -3, Size +1, Health +3, Initiative +1,Speed +6, Perception +3. 3-5’ at shoulder, 6-8’ in length. +150-200 lbs in weight • Lunacy at +2 • Claws +1L Bite +3L (No grapple required) • Human speech impossible • Body language and scent can convey ideas to pack members • Limited use of First Tongue • Track by scent

                  Mental Modifiers: -2 to resist Kuruth

                  Urshul is meant to be like mounstruous wolf. The book of the wolf says his head and jaws are monstruous so it must be bigger than a wolf´s. Then, at least as big as a bear´s jaws. So Bite +3L.
                  Also, it is a intermediate form between Gauru and Urhan, more feral than animal. So the claw should have almost the same size of the gauru´s but not as sharp as. So Claw +1L.
                  The book of the wolf also says a Urshul should be perfectly capable of dealing with an average bear. The average bear physical strenght is STR 5. The average str of a new character is 2,3. So STR +3. Dex here was also overpowered.
                  The urshul form is also near to the gauru. It is suppose to be an intermediated form. So a near-rage status must take account. Due to his animal nature, Urshul is even closer to gauru´s rage than the Dalu. So the panalty to resist Kuruth. It also helps to balance things, Urshul is powerful, but not that safe to take.
                  The species speed modifier +2 also applies, instead of the overpowered species speed modifier +3




                  Dalu
                  Dalu: Str +2, Sta +1, Manip -1, Size +1, Health +2, Speed +2, Perception +2. +25-50 lbs mass, +4-6” height. • Lunacy at +4

                  Mental Modifiers: -1 to resist Kuruth

                  Dalu is another intermediated form. The weight and height he gains come from animal nature growing inside him. The mean weight gain is 16Kg. The mean weight of a gray wolf is 40 Kg and it has mean Str 4. Then, the mean Str gain from the "wolfish" 16Kg is +1,5. The mean Str of a new character is 2,3. Since it is closer to 2 than to 3, then the Str bonus should be +2.
                  Dalu is also near to the Gauru and near the rage. But not as closer as Urshul. He is closer to a human nature, which is much more moderated than the animal nature of a wolf. So the penalty to resist Kuruth -1.
                  Dalu became a little bit stronger, but a little bit riskier.





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                  • #10
                    Fun fact, the spoiled Idigam forms are by and large more powerful than the houserule stuff here. With things like Urshul inflicting tilts or Gauru completely healing all damage and forcing 90% of combatants into down and dirty combat.

                    Take that for what you will.


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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by PenDragon View Post
                      Fun fact, the spoiled Idigam forms are by and large more powerful than the houserule stuff here. With things like Urshul inflicting tilts or Gauru completely healing all damage and forcing 90% of combatants into down and dirty combat.

                      Take that for what you will.

                      And will still die in 1 round due to several attacks with 3 or more automatic levels of Lethal damage. I dig it. Oh don't forget Urhan Celerity.
                      Last edited by Ephsy; 01-21-2015, 11:12 AM.

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                      • #12
                        Powerful really isn't meant to be "invincible".

                        What do you mean by Urhan Celerity? All forms other than Hishu applying Defense to Firearms? The mechanical justification for that design decision is quite reasonable, but I do wonder how they'll narratively explain it. Until stated otherwise I'm just going to tell myself "they have suberb kinetic vision that allows them to avoid bullets by perceiving their path ahead of time". Or basically, they don't dodge bullets, they dodge your aim.

                        I could accept it being the same as the Quicken Sight devotion, but I don't expect them to get all of its benefits.
                        Last edited by YeOfLittleFaith; 01-21-2015, 11:44 AM.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Ephsy View Post


                          And will still die in 1 round due to several attacks with 3 or more automatic levels of Lethal damage. I dig it. Oh don't forget Urhan Celerity.

                          I guess if their essence-for-healing is reflexive it might shift to making them more durable outside of gauru at the cost of making things more essence heavy, leading to the more dire 'I just killed this guy, and I need essence, and it's not like anyone's using him...' way of thinking.

                          @YeOfLittleFaith
                          Urhan may have an ability to let them interrupt.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by YeOfLittleFaith View Post
                            Powerful really isn't meant to be "invincible".

                            What do you mean by Urhan Celerity? All forms other than Hishu applying Defense to Firearms? The mechanical justification for that design decision is quite reasonable, but I do wonder how they'll narratively explain it. Until stated otherwise I'm just going to tell myself "they have suberb kinetic vision that allows them to avoid bullets by perceiving their path ahead of time". Or basically, they don't dodge bullets, they dodge your aim.

                            I could accept it being the same as the Quicken Sight devotion, but I don't expect them to get all of its benefits.

                            I mean burning 1 essence and acting in resort to another action, like active Celerity, not passive.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by nofather View Post


                              I guess if their essence-for-healing is reflexive it might shift to making them more durable outside of gauru at the cost of making things more essence heavy, leading to the more dire 'I just killed this guy, and I need essence, and it's not like anyone's using him...' way of thinking.

                              @YeOfLittleFaith
                              Urhan may have an ability to let them interrupt.

                              Fun fact: Spending essence is always reflexive. Apparently, they aren't gonna let you use it to heal yourself after Gauru healing, and it'll only be limited to 1 point being spent to heal yourself per turn, based off your PU score, regardless of how many points you can spend per turn. Essence is gonna have way more uses that it currently does. For instance: Influences.

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