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Fixed and Houseruled Werewolf Forms (1st ed)

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  • #16
    I haven't seen anything suggesting we get influences outside of gifts. But being able to turn that scaling bashing heal to lethal heal reflexively is nice, though I'm unsure why it's limited to once per round.

    Giving more reasons to use essence and putting stress on easy ways to regain it is good to me, though.

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    • #17
      Oh, the combat action preemptiveness. I forgot they had that in Urhan now. I apologize, I misunderstood the tone of your comment too.

      And misremembered the Defense thing. Not applied against Firearms in Urhan.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by nofather View Post
        I haven't seen anything suggesting we get influences outside of gifts. But being able to turn that scaling bashing heal to lethal heal reflexively is nice, though I'm unsure why it's limited to once per round.

        Giving more reasons to use essence and putting stress on easy ways to regain it is good to me, though.

        Rites, totems and spirits bestowing boons will, apparently.

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        • #19
          Well I have no problem giving to uratha tons of brute power. Werewolf is my prefered venue.
          However, in particular, my concern is first to fix the incoherences with other books. And secondly, to balance things with other venues. Because I do crossover and I believe the new world of darkness was meant for that.

          My changes let the things much more harder for a new werewolf character indeed. A newborn is not so capable to deal with Kuruth as an elder. And the rules I presented make this even worse.
          The forms became a little bit more powerful but more dangerous for yourself and your companions.The ST can easily make this a pain in the ass. Hence, the RP also becomes more rich and complicated.
          Anyway, I guess the forsaken was meant the enforce that characteristic of "liviing at the edge of loosing the control of yourself". They are undoubtly more beast-like than the Garou.
          And the rules uphead enforce these aspect at the same time that make it more coherent with the other rules of WoD and with the internal logic of the venue (I really do believe the printer should give an errata on Forsaken´s forms).

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          • #20
            Right, for some reason the forums are being a sod and refuse to add all my multiquotes into one post, so this'll take a couple of posts to cover.

            Originally posted by PenDragon View Post
            Fun fact, the spoiled Idigam forms are by and large more powerful than the houserule stuff here. With things like Urshul inflicting tilts or Gauru completely healing all damage and forcing 90% of combatants into down and dirty combat.

            Take that for what you will.
            I would say this is broadly true, yes. Rather than adding 9-agains and 8-agains we've added broader powers to ensure that every shape has its role.

            What we haven't really done at all is change the basic stat modifiers the shapes give you.

            Originally posted by Ephsy View Post


            And will still die in 1 round due to several attacks with 3 or more automatic levels of Lethal damage. I dig it. Oh don't forget Urhan Celerity.

            Yeah, concentrated firepower is the way to bring down a Gauru. A Sta 2 werewolf in Gauru that gets pinged 3 times with attacks that have a +3L damage rating and only just hit would suffer 1 point of Aggravated damage that round; the rest then gets cleared away by Gauru healing. The more attacks and the more successes you pile in, the quicker a Gauru goes down.

            Originally posted by nofather View Post
            Pretty much. Note that the shapes have gone through further tweaking and changes and so the final versions will look a little different or more developed than what was in the blog, but Urhan is very much the pursuit and agility form.

            Originally posted by Ephsy View Post

            Fun fact: Spending essence is always reflexive. Apparently, they aren't gonna let you use it to heal yourself after Gauru healing, and it'll only be limited to 1 point being spent to heal yourself per turn, based off your PU score, regardless of how many points you can spend per turn. Essence is gonna have way more uses that it currently does. For instance: Influences.
            It's not so much that you can't use it after Gauru healing so much as that there's no point using it after Gauru healing; Gauru already clears all Bashing and Lethal.


            - Chris Allen, Freelance Writer: Forsaken & Awakening 2nd Edition / The Pack / Dark Eras 1 & 2 / The Contagion Chronicle / Idigam Anthology / Night Horrors: Nameless & Accursed and Shunned by the Moon / Trinity Aeon / Aeon Aexpansion / And more besides...

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Ephsy View Post


              Rites, totems and spirits bestowing boons will, apparently.
              There are four ways to get access to Influences given mechanics in the book. One is Crescent Moon only. The Elemental Gift is the only way to get access to permanent Influences. Iif I remember correctly, the Rites blog revealed one of the rites that lets you get access to Influences from a locus. The final, most common and straightforward way to get access to Influences is something I don't think we've particularly talked about as yet.

              Originally posted by GhostHarley View Post
              Well I have no problem giving to uratha tons of brute power. Werewolf is my prefered venue.
              However, in particular, my concern is first to fix the incoherences with other books. And secondly, to balance things with other venues. Because I do crossover and I believe the new world of darkness was meant for that.

              My changes let the things much more harder for a new werewolf character indeed. A newborn is not so capable to deal with Kuruth as an elder. And the rules I presented make this even worse.
              The forms became a little bit more powerful but more dangerous for yourself and your companions.The ST can easily make this a pain in the ass. Hence, the RP also becomes more rich and complicated.
              Anyway, I guess the forsaken was meant the enforce that characteristic of "liviing at the edge of loosing the control of yourself". They are undoubtly more beast-like than the Garou.
              And the rules uphead enforce these aspect at the same time that make it more coherent with the other rules of WoD and with the internal logic of the venue (I really do believe the printer should give an errata on Forsaken´s forms).
              It's worth noting that the stats from the old nWoD core are absolutely notorious for their power level, wherein dogs are death machines and cops are murderbots. A more recent update of animal stats for Blood & Smoke actually brought dogs into a reasonable set of core stats with Str 2 but, for some reason, left wolves at Str 4. I *think* this is an oversight, or at least it's not a stat block I'd use in my own games. To my personal opinion, giving wolves Str 4 is excessively high and I personally would be more inclined to set them at Str 2.

              As a side-note, in 2e elders have a harder time with Kuruth than new werewolves do; an elder is probably better at controlling it, but when they lose control the results are more catastrophic. This is one of the drawbacks of high Primal Urge in the new system - something active and generating conflict, as opposed to the old high Primal Urge drawbacks that encouraged passivity.


              - Chris Allen, Freelance Writer: Forsaken & Awakening 2nd Edition / The Pack / Dark Eras 1 & 2 / The Contagion Chronicle / Idigam Anthology / Night Horrors: Nameless & Accursed and Shunned by the Moon / Trinity Aeon / Aeon Aexpansion / And more besides...

              ​Like my work? Feel like helping me stay supplied with tea? Check out my Patreon

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Acrozatarim View Post
                Yeah, concentrated firepower is the way to bring down a Gauru. A Sta 2 werewolf in Gauru that gets pinged 3 times with attacks that have a +3L damage rating and only just hit would suffer 1 point of Aggravated damage that round; the rest then gets cleared away by Gauru healing. The more attacks and the more successes you pile in, the quicker a Gauru goes down.

                It's not so much that you can't use it after Gauru healing so much as that there's no point using it after Gauru healing; Gauru already clears all Bashing and Lethal.
                Thank you for clearing that up.

                But, silver does the same, aggravated damage? And can that be healed? Because the same attack that manages to do 1 aggravated damage through gauru heal, with silver bullets puts you into death.

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                • #23
                  Yes, silver does aggravated damage. Regeneration does not cover aggravated damage (not even Gauru regeneration), so bringing silver weapons remains an effective way of actually killing a werewolf.


                  - Chris Allen, Freelance Writer: Forsaken & Awakening 2nd Edition / The Pack / Dark Eras 1 & 2 / The Contagion Chronicle / Idigam Anthology / Night Horrors: Nameless & Accursed and Shunned by the Moon / Trinity Aeon / Aeon Aexpansion / And more besides...

                  ​Like my work? Feel like helping me stay supplied with tea? Check out my Patreon

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Acrozatarim View Post
                    I would say this is broadly true, yes. Rather than adding 9-agains and 8-agains we've added broader powers to ensure that every shape has its role.

                    What we haven't really done at all is change the basic stat modifiers the shapes give you.
                    I'd say, and this is from experience playing with both the spoiled forms and houseruled ones, the only place where the new forms could be seen as "weaker" is in the damage department. And there it's a small difference (like, one success). Indeed it's only noticeable in Gauru, and only against an adversary who doesn't qualify for Down and Dirty. Which likely means a formidably combatty character against which the Werewolf probably wouldn't have a great dice-pool anyway. And Gauru makes up for it in spades elsewhere.

                    Beyond that Urshul's ability to hamstring with tilts is way bigger than 9-again, Urhan's initiative jump is absolutely a step up, and Dalu is (again, my experience) generally not the go-to fighting form so the intimidation factor is welcome. That plus the firearms defense and heightened healing puts the new forms well ahead in power.

                    Not that I'm complaining, Werewolves needed the boost.


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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Acrozatarim View Post
                      It's worth noting that the stats from the old nWoD core are absolutely notorious for their power level, wherein dogs are death machines and cops are murderbots. A more recent update of animal stats for Blood & Smoke actually brought dogs into a reasonable set of core stats with Str 2 but, for some reason, left wolves at Str 4. I *think* this is an oversight, or at least it's not a stat block I'd use in my own games. To my personal opinion, giving wolves Str 4 is excessively high and I personally would be more inclined to set them at Str 2.
                      Not any oversight, but certainly a thematic choice. It's a horror setting, wolves should be scary. Actually, wolves are scary, and considerably stronger than humans. If one comes at you with a genuine intent to maul there isn't much you can do. It's fortunate that they, like most predators, are shy and favor self preservation.


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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Acrozatarim View Post
                        It's not so much that you can't use it after Gauru healing so much as that there's no point using it after Gauru healing; Gauru already clears all Bashing and Lethal.
                        There is, tho, depending on in which moment that healing happens. At the start of your round? At the end? At the start of the whole combat round? In essence, if you get to, for example, spend essence reflexively (Ergo, in anyone's turn) and you can spend say, 3 points of essence, and each of those means 3L less, it means it's considerably less likely for the scenario which involves concentrated attacks to work, since you make filling your health track up to Aggravated even more unlikely.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by PenDragon View Post
                          I'd say, and this is from experience playing with both the spoiled forms and houseruled ones, the only place where the new forms could be seen as "weaker" is in the damage department. And there it's a small difference (like, one success). Indeed it's only noticeable in Gauru, and only against an adversary who doesn't qualify for Down and Dirty. Which likely means a formidably combatty character against which the Werewolf probably wouldn't have a great dice-pool anyway. And Gauru makes up for it in spades elsewhere.

                          Beyond that Urshul's ability to hamstring with tilts is way bigger than 9-again, Urhan's initiative jump is absolutely a step up, and Dalu is (again, my experience) generally not the go-to fighting form so the intimidation factor is welcome. That plus the firearms defense and heightened healing puts the new forms well ahead in power.

                          Not that I'm complaining, Werewolves needed the boost.
                          That may very well be true, but 1e technically doesn't use down and dirty rules nor tilts. So while the spoiled forms are technically more powerful, not everyone is going to want to make use of them. Regardless, I am eagerly awaiting W:TF2e

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                          • #28
                            I like the suggested changes to the various forms for 1e, but I've noticed they don't seem to address the core problem with Gauru form and instead try to just raise the modifiers and give it a few tweaks to further increase survivability. That's fine, I think a couple of adjustments here and there are in line with making it just feel a little beefier, but I'll have to make my own suggestion to tack onto them. With an appropriately cheesy name.

                            Primal Rage: While in Gauru form the Uratha may make a total number of attacks per turn equal to half of their Primal Urge, rounded up.

                            This results in getting an extra attack at PU 3, 5, 7, and 9.

                            The chief problem as I see it is that Gauru form's lack of access to Fighting Styles means that both Dalu and Urshul out compete it in the market for raw damage through multiattack mechanics. Baseline a Gauru's attack pool is only going to be a few dice higher than either of the other combat-y forms, the 8-again suggested helps alleviate this a bit but I don't think it hits the heart of the problem. One modestly larger pool of dice is going to have a hard time competing with even two (or more) slightly smaller pools. This helps alleviate that.

                            It also avoids further front-loading werewolf characters so they don't just come out of the gates as combat gods, as even a non-combat werewolf makes at least a decent fighter if they pop into war-form as is. Further, it gives a concrete reason why even non-combat werewolves with a high PU should be given a bit of discretion.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Red 9 View Post
                              Primal Rage: While in Gauru form the Uratha may make a total number of attacks per turn equal to half of their Primal Urge, rounded up.

                              This results in getting an extra attack at PU 3, 5, 7, and 9.

                              The chief problem as I see it is that Gauru form's lack of access to Fighting Styles means that both Dalu and Urshul out compete it in the market for raw damage through multiattack mechanics.
                              I've never been impressed with houserules but I've seen a lot of interesting ones in these threads. I have to admit I really like this, as it ups the ante a lot. Not only are you gaining a nice bonus for getting your Primal Urge up, but when in gauru form you have to attack every round. With multiple attacks that gives you more chance to rage out, if you start holding back those attacks.

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                              • #30
                                I'm generally opposed to abilities that grant extra actions or attacks. It slows down the game for very little in the way of interesting options, plus stacking extra attacks with other bonuses gets insanely good quickly.


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