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Petition For TRIBES OF THE MOON 2E (working title)

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  • I seem to be a little late for this discussion. Just let me see if a get this right:

    Kinslayers

    Blood Talons Tribe coverage; full new coverage for the Pure and their updated 2e mechanics; heretic and schismatic werewolf groups (weird wolf-cults, strange subgroups of Uratha who follow different ideologies, etc) for Blood Talons and Forsaken in general to clash and interact with; extensive rules for challenges and conflict between Uratha whether for dominance, battle or other things, from the individual level to packs clashing with each other all the way up to Protectorate-scale conflicts; an examination of the pure 'fluff' side of Uratha vs Uratha violence, the taboos, the implications, the different ways various regional Uratha go about these things and their traditions; new fighting styles, Gifts, Rites etc around clashing between Uratha.

    Aside from expanding on the Blood Talon tribe, it would probably deal with Ghost Wolves, the Pure, and Bale Hounds. I hope to see playable Pure rules as well as a less black and white scenario among Urdaga and Anshega. As for Bale Hounds, they are my favorites, which would sell me the book just for them.


    Shadow Hunters

    Bone Shadow Tribe coverage; definitive coverage of the Shadow, including Deep Shadow, all sorts of phenomena and weirdness, piles of hooks and descriptions of varied Shadow manifestations, more information about Resonance and the interplay between Flesh and Shadow, basically all the creative and mechanical support a GM needs to run the Shadow side of the game; a much deeper look at spirit organisation and politics than ever before to turn spirits into key characters and influences in a game; Totems, dedicating more wordcount to both the ideas and inspiration side of things, but also heftily expanding their mechanical side and offering a new framework to help cover the ascent and growth in power of a totem alongside its pack, the ways the totem and pack affect each other on even a subconscious level, etc; an examination of hunting spirits for the Uratha, with tools, tricks and traps that the Uratha can use against spirits and vice versa; and a section on some Big Names in the Shadow, going into more detail on some Lesser Incarnae, the Firstborn Totems etc, to help GMs with bringing such beings into the game rather than leaving them as distant entities that are never really interacted with.

    Aside from expanding on the Bone Shadow tribe, it would give in deep information about Twilight, the Gauntlet, and the Shadow: Ghosts, Ectoplasm, Hisil Landscape, Spirits and even weirder things. Might overlap a little with Kinslayers as it should cover the Maeljin and Wounds.


    Sacred Ground

    Hunter in Darkness Tribe coverage; new rules for territory and the surrounding issues, such as shaping your territory, making territory a key element in clashing with other Uratha, more info on Loci, the role prey take in the territory, etc; more information on the Gauntlet itself, exploring how to bring it into a game not just as a basic boundary but as a place with strange phenomena, discussion of what lies *within* it, etc; full new coverage of the Hosts, with more detailed rules than are present in the corebook and a better examination of Host society, their goals and how they go about them, including coverage for what happens when the Hosts are successful and begin to regain the divine power of their progenitors; coverage of how Uratha interact with certain other peripheral realms (possibly including the Hedge and Underworld); and maybe new Hunting Ground write-ups or examples of specific Sacred Places that the Uratha and Hunters in Darkness hold as sacred ground.

    Aside from expanding on the Hunter in Darkness tribe, it would be our new Territories with the added subject of Hosts: Patrolling, territory mechanics like Damnation City, in deep Host rules and even new hosts. This also might cover Pagaeans, since Rat and Spider were those, and even give us new legends to seed our stories.


    Watchdogs

    Iron Master Tribe coverage; more rules for humanity as prey, including specific prey-groups from cultists to corporations and how they can both be a threat to and be threatened by the Uratha; rules for human shamen expanded out of the Rites system; an examination of the difficulties of maintaining a human cover amidst society for an Uratha, the challenges of hunting in dense urban areas and amongst human communities in general, and how humans drastically shape the spiritual reflection of the world; changes in technology and science, and both the challenges Uratha can face from these, the challenges they faced in previous technological eras, and the ways technology and change contribute to the benefit of the Uratha and the Iron Masters; and coverage of Uratha trying to affect the human population on a much largerscale, like trying to shape the destiny of nations or enslave entire regions to the machinations of spirit-gods or whatnot.

    Aside from expanding on the Iron Master tribe, it would give us information on how technology affects the Uratha, and how mortals become capable of harnessing the power of the Hisil and use it against the wolves.


    Heirs to the Hunt

    Storm Lord Tribe coverage; deeper coverage of Claimed with more mechanics, as well as new types of Claimed horror; an examination of other weird elements of possessions and otherworldy invaders, including new antagonist types; Forsaken politics, including on a wide scale, including traditions and cultures around thereof, how Tribes and packs and Lodges interact to affect the balance of power; more extensive coverage around Protectorates, including how and why they form, system support for Protectorates and their effects, etc; and wordcount and more mechanical support for high Primal Urge werewolves, the paths available for them to take, how they affect the world and how they, in turn, are changed.

    Aside from expanding on the Storm Lord tribe, it would give us deeper Claiming and Politics rules. It will clearly overlap with Watchdogs and Sacred Ground, but done right this might add a lot of info on those topics. I'm really curious about "new antagonists", I guess Spirits will receive a lot of new ways to transform flesh into monstrosity. I advise covering the Indigam here, since they are the threats that unite Forsaken, and thus generate the most "politiking" you will ever find in a chronicle of Uratha.


    Count me in, boys. If I got this right, I would buy every single one of those books, twice if needed for them to become reality.
    Last edited by BinAly; 04-13-2016, 08:36 PM.

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    • The downside to doing the books this way (tribe + prey) is that it's great if you love Blood Talons, poor if you like Storm Lords. If (and that's a definite *if*) Rich went for this, with pre-planning, writing, development, and production, you'd be looking at *maybe* the first book by end 2016/early 2017, and if the production line speeds up, Storm Lords by 2019/2020.

      Personally, I'd rather have the 5 tribes in one book, and prey in another, and hopefully have both by mid next year.


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      • Originally posted by Bunyip View Post
        The downside to doing the books this way (tribe + prey) is that it's great if you love Blood Talons, poor if you like Storm Lords. If (and that's a definite *if*) Rich went for this, with pre-planning, writing, development, and production, you'd be looking at *maybe* the first book by end 2016/early 2017, and if the production line speeds up, Storm Lords by 2019/2020.

        Personally, I'd rather have the 5 tribes in one book, and prey in another, and hopefully have both by mid next year.
        Problem is, I don't see much to cover just for the Tribes. It will end up being a new gifts and rites list if you con't include extensive info about their sacred prey, and that is a lot of words for just one book. In the end, even if we get a single Tribes book, their prey will only be covered by the end of the same time-line you pointed. Unless they are able to compile all the preys into a "Book of Prey", which might not do justice to the sheer amount of story seeds and mechanics all the preys should deliver.

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        • This is true, but that opens up some interesting questions about how digital distribution can be played around with.

          More questions I currently want to tackle, but you know, it's a new era, we can think about products in different ways.

          Though the inevitability of print does kick that in somewhat.


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          • Predators had spirits, a little bit on hosts, and ridden and claimed in it, but it didn't go much into the Hisil. I couldn't see a book like that tackling the Pure and Bale Hounds and humanity as a threat too, at least not while also doing them all justice. And as good as Tribes of the Moon was, it was still pretty limited.

            It doesn't look like third edition is coming anytime soon, so we do seem to have time for five rather than two books. While it would be nice if things were faster, it's hard to tell for customers and fans lately how much of that is due to the Paradox buyout throughout the past year, that Rich Thomas said slowed down production. Recently we've actually had a pretty big surge of releases, so perhaps things are speeding up at the tail end.

            If Paradox starts publishing old World of Darkness stuff, too, there may be less work to do on those lines.

            But yes, whoever likes the last tribe gets the shaft.
            Last edited by nofather; 04-13-2016, 10:26 PM.

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            • Originally posted by nofather View Post
              But yes, whoever likes the last tribe gets the shaft.
              I don't think they get the shaft by a lot, though. Every prey is a prey for all Tribes, just no their specialty. Storm Lords also battle other Uratha, Hosts and humans, which are covered by the first books. The order seems pretty nice, with Werewolf antagonists and interactions being covered first (which also cover how the Moon Tribes interact), and the Hisil getting the second place (which is everything you need to run a true Uratha chronicle, and no book in 2E really delivers Shadow information). All in all, I think it is a good way to build a strong gameline that has all its ends covered.

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              • Putting this up here, since we can expect any Werewolf supplement to (likely) feature new Gifts.

                Plus, until we have more material out on the Pure, I'm going with my own conversions for the Pure Gifts.


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                • Originally posted by BinAly View Post
                  Problem is, I don't see much to cover just for the Tribes.
                  While I don't agree with this, the model I'd prefer to see would be:

                  Children of the Wolf - Covers the Forsaken tribes, the Pure, the Bale Hounds, and expands on possibilities of hidden or lost tribes, new tribes coming up, and how the possible transition of large lodge to small tribe might work.

                  What Lurks in Shadow - Covers most of the prey except humans, and werewolves. Spirits, the Hisil, ridden, claimed, the hosts, how the idigam have upset the apple cart. More detail on playing in the Shadow, and hunting that part of the pack's territory.

                  Heirs of Man - Humans, Wolf-Blooded, living in the modern world filled with internet, wireless surveillance, near ubiquitous recording devices, and human coordination. Explores the shifting nature of the Hunt, how it is both timeless and adaptable. Modern times give more agency to WB and humans than every before. Examine how these peripherals view the werewolves, and the nature of the pack specifically from the outsiders point of view. Introduce more options for focusing play on the periphery. Not Uratha-less packs. More what changes when your entire game is low-to-zero-powered people inhabiting a frightening world of violence and horror driven by madness-inducing demigods at the hub?

                  Then expand whatever else needs expanding. There's always something.


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                  • I think your "Children of Wolf" book crams in way too much. You can do all 5 Forsaken Tribes in one book fairly plausibly, but you're not going to have room for strong Pure and Bale Houund, Lost Tribes, etc coverage in the same volume.


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                    • I'd honestly like to see a book on the Tribes (stuffed with snapshots of history, new Gifts, possibly a handful of Lodges, and rumors of lost Tribes or Tribes to come), a book of antagonists (give the Pure a pretty hefty chapter, then toss some wordcount at mortals, Bale Hounds, skinchangers, and the like), and then another book that devotes itself fully to Spirits and the Shadow (both describing possibly enemies and allies/totems/packmates, and what the Shadow is like when you roam it and partially live in it). I'd also love to see the Werewolf equivalent of Equinox Road, covering what happens at Primal Urge 7-10, extensive material on Idigam, and then some possible truths about Father Wolf, Luna, and the Firstborn.


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                      • Originally posted by atamajakki View Post
                        I'd honestly like to see a book on the Tribes (stuffed with snapshots of history, new Gifts, possibly a handful of Lodges, and rumors of lost Tribes or Tribes to come), a book of antagonists (give the Pure a pretty hefty chapter, then toss some wordcount at mortals, Bale Hounds, skinchangers, and the like), and then another book that devotes itself fully to Spirits and the Shadow (both describing possibly enemies and allies/totems/packmates, and what the Shadow is like when you roam it and partially live in it). I'd also love to see the Werewolf equivalent of Equinox Road, covering what happens at Primal Urge 7-10, extensive material on Idigam, and then some possible truths about Father Wolf, Luna, and the Firstborn.

                        You might check out Tribes of the Moon, the Pure, Blasphemies and Predators, which is basically what you're describing, beyond the 'end game' stuff.

                        The problem with a book on all the tribes is that it doesn't get the room to really flesh them out very well. As evidence I'd point to Tribes of the Moon. And the Bale Hounds already had some wordcount 'tossed' at them long ago and it's left fans wanting more, while a book devoted entirely to the Shadow is probably going to be a blue book, since it's something that multiple game lines are going to be involved in.
                        Last edited by nofather; 04-14-2016, 01:12 AM.

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                        • Originally posted by nofather View Post


                          You might check out Tribes of the Moon, the Pure, Blasphemies and Predators, which is basically what you're describing.
                          Well yeah, but with the benefit of a greater understanding of the line and 2e rules.


                          Call me Remi. Female pronouns for me, please.

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                          • I still thinks that proper Bale Hounds should be part of 2E Inferno book as one of it's chapter ( other would be Belial Brood, rest to the Inferno directly ) - those groups are always "wicked stepchildren" of proper gamelines, but one chapter on specifics of Bale Hounds will be enough if rest of book will talk about Malejins as part of Inferno realm. Not that some thoughts should not be shown in Kinslayers, but core of it should be in new Inferno book.


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                            • Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
                              I still thinks that proper Bale Hounds should be part of 2E Inferno book as one of it's chapter ( other would be Belial Brood, rest to the Inferno directly ) - those groups are always "wicked stepchildren" of proper gamelines, but one chapter on specifics of Bale Hounds will be enough if rest of book will talk about Malejins as part of Inferno realm. Not that some thoughts should not be shown in Kinslayers, but core of it should be in new Inferno book.

                              I definitely don't think Belial's Brood should be in the inferno book, given they're not a group with any ties to the inferno at all.

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                              • Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
                                I still thinks that proper Bale Hounds should be part of 2E Inferno book as one of it's chapter ( other would be Belial Brood, rest to the Inferno directly ) - those groups are always "wicked stepchildren" of proper gamelines, but one chapter on specifics of Bale Hounds will be enough if rest of book will talk about Malejins as part of Inferno realm. Not that some thoughts should not be shown in Kinslayers, but core of it should be in new Inferno book.
                                That's a waste of significant word count for quite a lot of groups who don't play werewolf and couldn't care less about Bale Hounds.


                                Writer. Developer. World of Darkness | Chronicles of Darkness | The Trinity Continuum

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