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  • Changing Breeds 2.0- Because Someone had to

    I'm writing a homebrew conversion of Changing Breeds to bring them in line with W:tF 2.0. Most of the work has been easy so far, coming up with unified Breeds that balance with Uratha, but the difficult part is dealing with unique special powers for Dire Beast and Primal Beast, as the ones Urshul and Urhan get aren't perfect for every breed. Leaning on converting the subspecies into Tribes, as far as Gifts, Renown, and the Hunt are concerned, while moving away from Aspects & Favors toward having Breed Gifts, much like the Gifts of the Wolf.

    I'll post my notes in a bit, but I'm open to suggestions.


    Crunch isn't a hobby; it's a calling.

  • #2
    Changing Breeds gets a lot of flak for a lot of good reasons, but I've always liked playing around with them. When I first started my Werewolf game, my "pack" included four different breeds (plus a Siten Uzu which had been adapted for ravens). I had to give the mechanics a critical eye, and completely invented my own lore and fluff for them, but having them as an option can add interesting depth to the setting. So, I totally appreciate someone working on a 2E.


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    • #3
      You can look in here for an early attempt and previous suggestions for both fluff and mechanics fixes. I personally suggested the Old Ones as a potential antagonistic force, and I do plan on developing them in a way that would make them quite different then the idigams. If you want any help, I'm here :P


      My Homebrew Signature- Because I need one. If you use any of it, please share with me how it went!

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      • #4
        This should get moved to WoD general discussion.

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        • #5
          I really hope OP decides to do a 2ed of changing breeds. I'm working on an ancient era for werewolf and I'm trying to convert the Balam to 2ed rules & mechanics. Though I am not sure how the gifts will work out....

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          • #6
            Changing Breeds really needs to be update and totally reimagened to 2e. Maybe integrating other elements like the shapshifters from War Against the Pure and Skinchangers.

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            • #7
              If they could do away with rape implications in the introductory chapter, that'd be awesome too.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by LostLight View Post
                You can look in here for an early attempt and previous suggestions for both fluff and mechanics fixes. I personally suggested the Old Ones as a potential antagonistic force, and I do plan on developing them in a way that would make them quite different then the idigams. If you want any help, I'm here :P
                I do like the "lost tribe" angle for the Old Ones. An entire Cryptopoly of Shadow-bound Shifters, using Reaching and Gifts to manipulate a world they're forevermore denied? I think that has potential.


                Crunch isn't a hobby; it's a calling.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Seraph Kitty View Post
                  Changing Breeds gets a lot of flak for a lot of good reasons, but I've always liked playing around with them. When I first started my Werewolf game, my "pack" included four different breeds (plus a Siten Uzu which had been adapted for ravens). I had to give the mechanics a critical eye, and completely invented my own lore and fluff for them, but having them as an option can add interesting depth to the setting. So, I totally appreciate someone working on a 2E.
                  If CB was to get another shot, I would put them in the same class as the Uratha.

                  What do the Uratha do? They hunt. The Wolf Must Hunt. It's what wolves do and it's what the Uratha do.

                  What do Ravens do? They steal.

                  What do Sharks do? They swim.

                  etc, etc.

                  Link a spirit patron (Luna and Father Wolf shouldn't be the only one squirting out kids) and combine it with a role in the Shadow.



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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Shock View Post

                    If CB was to get another shot, I would put them in the same class as the Uratha.

                    What do the Uratha do? They hunt. The Wolf Must Hunt. It's what wolves do and it's what the Uratha do.

                    What do Ravens do? They steal.

                    What do Sharks do? They swim.

                    etc, etc.

                    Link a spirit patron (Luna and Father Wolf shouldn't be the only one squirting out kids) and combine it with a role in the Shadow.


                    That's brilliantly simple. Thanks Shock, you just solved one of my big road blocks in how to bring other shifters into my upcoming chronicle!

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Ephsy View Post
                      If they could do away with rape implications in the introductory chapter, that'd be awesome too.
                      Oh dear I had tried to forget that part. I hate to say it but CB was a really shitty book. A lot of the stuff in it was broken.
                      Skinchangers on the other hand.. That one still is in my top 10 if not top 5 of 1E NWoD.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Full Time GM View Post

                        That's brilliantly simple. Thanks Shock, you just solved one of my big road blocks in how to bring other shifters into my upcoming chronicle!
                        If you really want to subvert views that the Uratha/players have, start to drop hints that those who are taken over by Rat/Spider Hosts are not outright killed but merge with them and act in the same Uratha do. Azlu Crawlers are less "Evil spider who crawls into people's ears to munch on their brains" and more "Spirit shard which is piloted by a gestalt compound of souls that it has consumed and continues to act according to it's instincts" Not much different from a Kindred who has committed Diablerie. Glimmers of specks of humanity screaming as it is forced to enact more and more destruction by hard wired predatory urges.

                        Azarath, simply enough, don't lose their souls as Uratha claim they do. The Azlu shard merges with said human in which full body horror with psychological torment comes into play.

                        Same thing with the Rats.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Shock View Post

                          If CB was to get another shot, I would put them in the same class as the Uratha.

                          What do the Uratha do? They hunt. The Wolf Must Hunt. It's what wolves do and it's what the Uratha do.

                          What do Ravens do? They steal.

                          What do Sharks do? They swim.

                          etc, etc.

                          Link a spirit patron (Luna and Father Wolf shouldn't be the only one squirting out kids) and combine it with a role in the Shadow.


                          This is where I'd go too. I did want to use the Sacred Hunt to describe where Uratha and other Shifters would interact (and coming up with a way to avoid the Uratha killing off other Shifters out of hand, Pure/Bale Hound, and to a lesser extent, BT shenanigans aside), but it would work better if I could take into account the metaphysics of why those power animals are revered, and giving them their own Breed Gifts is a step in that direction.


                          Crunch isn't a hobby; it's a calling.

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                          • #14
                            Here is what I've done so far from the Changing Breeds book. As I said before, the issue I have is dealing with how Dire Beast and Primal Beast forms aren't all going to do the same things Urshul and Urhan do.

                            Breed: Bastet

                            Throwback: as Dalu, no Size change, +1 Dexterity (+2 speed)
                            War-form: as Gauru, Size +1, Dexterity +2
                            Dire Beast: As Urshul, no Size change, +3 Dexterity
                            Primal Beast: as Urhan, Size -2, Dexterity +3, Claws as Dalu, Speed +6
                            Diet: Carnivore

                            Breed: Land Titans

                            Throwback: as Dalu, Perception as Hishu, gain Armor 1/0, Tusks in place of Bite
                            War-form: as Gauru, no Dexterity increase, Perception +2, Armor 2/1, Trample, Cannot establish a Grapple with Tusks, Size +3
                            Dire Beast: As Urshul, no Dexterity increase, Perception +2, Armor 2/1,Trample, Tusks, Size +5, Speed +7 (Species Factor 5)
                            Primal Beast: as Urhan, no Dexterity increase, Perception +1, no Speed increase, Trample, Armor 1/0, Tusks, Size +6
                            Diet: Herbivore

                            Breed: Laughing Strangers

                            Throwback: as Dalu, no Size change, +1 Dexterity (+2 speed)
                            War-form: as Gauru, Size +1, Dexterity +2
                            Dire Beast: As Urshul, no Size change, +3 Dexterity
                            Primal Beast: as Urhan, Size -2, Dexterity +3, Bute as Hishu, Speed +6
                            Diet: Omnivore

                            Breed: The Pack

                            Throwback: as Dalu
                            War-form: as Gauru
                            Dire Beast: As Urshul
                            Primal Beast: as Urhan
                            Diet: Carnivore

                            Breed: Royal Apes

                            Throwback: as Dalu, no Size change, +1 Dexterity (+2 speed)
                            War-form: as Gauru, Size +1, Dexterity +2
                            Dire Beast: As Urshul, no Size change, +3 Dexterity, Tool User: a Royal Ape take no penalties for using human technology while in Dire Beast
                            Primal Beast: as Urhan, Size -2, Dexterity +3, Claws as Dalu, can use tools
                            Diet: Omnivore

                            Breed: The Spinner-Kin

                            Throwback: As Dalu, Perception as Hishu, gain Armor 1/0, Manipulation -2, can climb sheer surfaces as per the Wallcrawling power, bite as Hishu, venomous (may, with a successful bite, impose the Grave version of the Poisoned Tilt and expose the target to a poison with a Toxicity of 1/2 their Primal Urge, rounded up, that inflicts magical Lethal damage every hour, for a number of hours equal to his Primal Urge
                            War-form: as Gauru, Perception +2, gain Armor 2/1, can climb sheer surfaces as per the Wallcrawling power, Speed + 8 (species factor +4), Bite deals 1L; venomous as per Throwback, Webbing
                            Dire Beast: As Urshul, Perception +2, Armor 2/1, Wallcrawling and Venomous as Throwback, Inflicts full Lunacy, Webbing
                            Primal Beast: as Urhan, Perception +3, Size -4, Wallcrawling, Venomous, Bite as Hishu, double jumping distances, Manipulation -2, Webbing
                            Diet: Carnivore

                            Breed: Ursara

                            Throwback: as Dalu, perception as Hishu, +2 size, -2 Manipulation, Armor 1/0
                            War-form: as Gauru, Perception +2, Size +3, Armor 2/1
                            Dire Beast: As Urshul, Perception +2, Size +2, Armor 2/1Manipulation -2
                            Primal Beast: as Urhan, Perception +3, Size +2, Armor 1/0, Claws as Dalu, Manipulation -2
                            Diet: Omnivore

                            Breed: Wind-Runners

                            Throwback: as Dalu, Perception as Hishu, Bite as Hishu, +1 Dexterity, (+4 Speed, species factor +2), Hooves in place of Claws
                            War-form: as Gauru, Perception +2, Dexterity +2, Speed +9 (species factor +4), trample (all-out attacks with Hooves gain additional +1 and impose Knocked Down Tilt if successful)
                            Dire Beast: As Urshul, Dexterity +3, Perception +2, Speed +10, Trample
                            Primal Beast: as Urhan, Size +1, Dexterity +3, Perception +3, Speed +10, Trample
                            Diet: Herbivore

                            Breed: Wing-Folk

                            Throwback: as Dalu, no Size change, +1 Dexterity (+2 speed), no Claws, double jumping distances
                            War-form: as Gauru, size +1, Dexterity +2, Gliding (as the Patagia Predatory Aspect in V:tR 2.0)
                            Dire Beast: As Urshul, no Size Change, +3 Dexterity, Wings
                            Primal Beast: as Urhan, -3 Size, +3 Dexterity, Wings, Land speed factor 1 (flying speed factor 5)
                            Diet: Omnivore

                            Breed: Cold Kings

                            Throwback: as Dalu, Perception as Hishu, gain Armor 1/0, -2 Manipulation, +2 Stamina
                            War-form: as Gauru, Perception +2, Armor 2/1, +3 Stamina
                            Dire Beast: As Urshul, Perception +2, Armor 2/1, +3 Stamina, -2 Manipulation
                            Primal Beast: as Urhan, no Size Change, Perception +3, Armor 1/0, -2 Manipulation, +3 Stamina
                            Diet: Carnivore

                            Breed: Horned-Folk

                            Throwback: as Dalu, no Size change, +1 Dexterity (+2 speed), no Claws, bite as Hishu, +1 on rolls to jump, vestigial horns allow for Headbutting for lethal damage, and grant armor 1/1 against called shots to the head
                            War-form: as Gauru, +1 Size, +2 Dexterity, bite as Hishu, Headbutt deals 2L, armor 2/2, trample (all-out attacks with Horns gain additional +1 and impose Knocked Down Tilt if successful)
                            Dire Beast: As Urshul, no Size Change, +3 Dexterity, Bite As Hishu, Headbutt 2L, Armor 2/2, Trample, Speed +8
                            Primal Beast: as Urhan, -1 Size, +3 Dexterity, Bite As Hishu, Headbutt 1L, Armor 1/1 vs Head shots, Trample, Speed +8
                            Diet: Herbivore

                            Breed: Oceanborn

                            Throwback: as Dalu, Perception as Hishu, -2 Manipulation, +1 on rolls to hold breath and swim
                            War-form: as Gauru, +2 Perception, Aquatic (as per the Predatory Aspect)
                            Dire Beast: As Urshul, +2 Perception, Aquatic (as per the Predatory Aspect), no claws, + 2 Size
                            Primal Beast: as Urhan, +3 Perception, Aquatic (as per the Predatory Aspect), no claws, + 1 Size
                            Diet: Carnivore

                            Breed: Riverkin

                            Throwback: as Dalu, Perception as Hishu, -2 Manipulation, +1 on rolls to hold breath and swim
                            War-form: as Gauru, +2 Perception, Aquatic (as per the Predatory Aspect), double jumping distances, Wallcrawling
                            Dire Beast: As Urshul, +2 Perception, Aquatic (as per the Predatory Aspect), double jumping distances, Wallcrawling
                            Primal Beast: as Urhan, Size -3, +3 Perception, Aquatic (as per the Predatory Aspect), double jumping distances, Wallcrawling
                            Diet: Omnivore

                            Breed: Serpentines

                            Throwback: as Dalu, Manipulation -2, Dexterity +2
                            War-Form: as Gauru, Wall Crawling, Legs fuse into tail, Slippery: Counts as 2 sizes smaller for squeezing purposes, gains +2 to rolls to slip bonds and escape grapples, Dexterity +3, Speed factor 5
                            Dire Beast: as Urshul, Dexterity +4, Wallcrawling, Aquatic, Limbless, Slippery, Swallow Whole: can immobilize and damage targets smaller than the Feral grappled as part of a Bite attack, counts as using a restraining device. Inflicts full Lunacy, Speed factor 8
                            Primal Beast: as Urhan, Size +1, Wallcrawling, Manipulation -2, Dexterity +4, Limbless, Aquatic, Slippery, Swallow Whole, Speed factor 9
                            Diet: Carnivore

                            Breed: The Swarm

                            Throwback: as Dalu, Perception as Hishu, gain Armor 1/0, Manipulation -2, can climb sheer surfaces as per the Wallcrawling power
                            War-form: as Gauru, +2 Perception, Gains the benefits of the Swarm Form merit (V:tR 2.0), using Primal Urge in place of Blood Potency, using the Gauru Strength adjustment for determining Swarm Damage. The Swarm ignores effects that downgrade mundane damage.
                            Dire Beast: As Urshul, Perception +2, Armor 2/1, Wallcrawling, Inflicts full Lunacy
                            Primal Beast: as Urhan, Perception +3, Armor 1/0, Wallcrawling, Manipulation -2, Dexterity +3, Size -4, Speed factor 3
                            Diet: Omnivore

                            Breed: The Taurae

                            Throwback: as Dalu, no Claws, bite as Hishu, vestigial horns allow for Headbutting for lethal damage, and grant armor 1/1 against called shots to the head, +2 Stamina, Manipulation -2
                            War-form: as Gauru, bite as Hishu, Headbutt deals 2L, armor 2/2, trample (all-out attacks with Horns gain additional +1 and impose Knocked Down Tilt if successful), +3 Stamina
                            Dire Beast: As Urshul, Bite As Hishu, Headbutt 2L, Armor 2/2 vs. head shots, Trample, Speed +6, + 3 Stamina, Manipulation -2
                            Primal Beast: as Urhan, Size +3, Manipulation -2, Bite as Hishu, Headbutt 1L, Armor 1/1 vs. head shots, Trample, Speed +6, + 3 Stamina
                            Diet: Herbivore
                            Last edited by Hexmeister Vic; 05-03-2015, 07:54 PM. Reason: Spinner-Kin Venom was not where I wanted it to be in terms of raw power.


                            Crunch isn't a hobby; it's a calling.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Shock View Post
                              If CB was to get another shot, I would put them in the same class as the Uratha.
                              What do the Uratha do? They hunt. The Wolf Must Hunt. It's what wolves do and it's what the Uratha do.
                              What do Ravens do? They steal.
                              What do Sharks do? They swim.
                              etc, etc.
                              Link a spirit patron (Luna and Father Wolf shouldn't be the only one squirting out kids) and combine it with a role in the Shadow.
                              Aye, that was the approach I took when I introduced them to the game. Although my chronicle is about mysteries of the shadow, so when I envisioned the Changing Breeds, it was in terms of their spiritual role. I only worked on the ones being played, but here's the base concepts I came up with:
                              Werewolves keep the two worlds separate to prevent abuse
                              -foxes help the two worlds influence one another to make sure the 'proper way' is reinforced
                              -bears are healers of the mind, spirit and body, tasked with guiding the world's rebirth in spring
                              -rats reconcile artificial and natural aspects of the world by making sure humanity's discards can be recycled
                              -lions were sent to lead and punish humans, as rulers, warriors and judges [in Africa, lions and hyenas together cover the role werewolves do elsewhere, hyenas focusing on the Shadow side, using black magic]

                              They never became as expansive as werewolves did, but I did create a variety of factions among each, some giving wildly different philosophies. The werefoxes and -rats in particular had very self-contradicting ideologies; the above purposes are what are promoted by various powerful spirits and largest factions as the "official truth", but competing factions have compelling evidence undermining that and in support of other purposes. -Lions were in greater agreement of their purpose, and formed factions with different approaches as to how. Bears just did their own thing, and didn't have much in the way of myth or society to guide that - just some instincts and vague senses of responsibility / satisfaction (which followed commonly shared trends, but they don't hang out enough to realize it). I also came up with several totems and myths about origins and spiritual patrons.

                              I had a lot of fun working on fleshing those out - and my players really enjoyed the lore I developed. It was very tied to the themes of my chronicle, though. Given the portrayal of Idigam Chronicle, I probably wouldn't recommend using my ideas - at least not as a starting point. Answering an equivalent to "the Wolf Must Hunt" and tying everything back to that theme should really be the approach - and it'll probably make the Changing Breeds a lot more appealing. But I would like to think my ideas are interesting enough to help somewhere, so I'll freely share them with anyone interested.
                              Last edited by Seraph Kitty; 03-14-2015, 03:47 AM.


                              Second Chance for

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