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  • Hexmeister Vic
    started a topic Changing Breeds 2.0- Because Someone had to

    Changing Breeds 2.0- Because Someone had to

    I'm writing a homebrew conversion of Changing Breeds to bring them in line with W:tF 2.0. Most of the work has been easy so far, coming up with unified Breeds that balance with Uratha, but the difficult part is dealing with unique special powers for Dire Beast and Primal Beast, as the ones Urshul and Urhan get aren't perfect for every breed. Leaning on converting the subspecies into Tribes, as far as Gifts, Renown, and the Hunt are concerned, while moving away from Aspects & Favors toward having Breed Gifts, much like the Gifts of the Wolf.

    I'll post my notes in a bit, but I'm open to suggestions.

  • Master Aquatosic
    replied
    I have an idea for the ban What about amber? A material similar in hardness to silver, totally unforgable, but could possibly be sharpened. Plus, it is not made of any minerals or ores and is made from sap deposits older than many modern mountains. It thus flouts their claim to timelessness and is hard without being a mineral or ore. What do you think?

    A big weakness is that it burns easily, but if the Consuming Form is their Garou, having their Bane becoming less useful once they reach their most deadly form is in step with Werewolf balancing
    Last edited by Master Aquatosic; 01-16-2019, 11:37 PM.

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  • Tessie
    replied
    The automatic lethal damage on contact. You don't want to get grappled as you generally have to wait until the next turn (meaning two turns worth of contact damage that bypasses regular armor) until you can attempt to disengage. The extra Strength in that form also increases their grappling dice pools.

    Lunacy is very much tied to Luna, as far as I recall. The Stone-Forged has no immediate connection to her (if any connection at all) so whatever hiding effect they have (and they should have one considering how attention grabbing their forms are even compared to Uratha) would work at least somewhat differently.

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  • Master Aquatosic
    replied
    Why are they good grapplers? Is it the extra size, the damage reduction?

    Also, do they still cause Lunacy or some other effect to mask their very obvious presence?

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  • Tessie
    replied
    Originally posted by Master Aquatosic View Post
    Do the Stoneforged still rage?
    Not as such. The Consuming Form is their Gauru equivalent, complete with time restrictions and hefty drawbacks. Being on fire (and not being completely immune to that) in a form that is made for killing will create tendencies to certain emotional states while in that form, but I don't think it needs additional rules to be handled. At least not without also creating more detailed rules for the other forms, and this was just supposed to be an example mock up.

    Originally posted by Master Aquatosic View Post
    How is their Harmony different from werewolves? How is it similar?
    No idea. See below.

    Originally posted by Master Aquatosic View Post
    Do they naturally form packs?
    Everyone prefers kinship, but unlike werewolves they're simply not common enough to be able to form large groups of their own, nor do they have any tools for finding each other. They don't even have spirit "helpers" that can point them in a direction. No, they'll most likely be found by Uratha and find kinship in this other breed of shapeshifters. Other Forged might be loners or they might be noticed by any other type of supernaturals that can invite them into their own supernatural communities.

    Originally posted by Master Aquatosic View Post
    What kind of natural weapons do they have?
    They're hella grapplers for obvious reasons, but that's kinda it. Pretty sure their unarmed attacks should deal lethal in the Towering and Consuming Forms, but no claws or teeth with numerically increased damage modifiers.

    Originally posted by Master Aquatosic View Post
    What is their Bane?
    I don't know. Preferably something that is symbolically opposed to mountains, forging, fire, etc. Just reusing silver is boring, and really not fitting for a breed that is mineral based.

    Originally posted by Master Aquatosic View Post
    Just stuff to think about.
    Other things to think about:
    What do they do? What is the purpose of their creation? Their in-setting creation myth seems to preclude a predetermined purpose, but they still need a role in the game for the players.
    Without a purpose it's impossible to determine how their Harmony equivalent should work. Since I focused only on mechanics I kinda had to approach it as if they have no Harmony equivalent at all, unless they're like second edition Bound with a combined power stat and Integrity equivalent.

    Essence economy. Without purpose it's also difficult to create a fitting Essence economy since that should inform the gameplay loop of playing these guys. I could definitely see them burning other stuff for Essence as well; the whole Essence from Integrity mechanic is already lifted from G-M cultist sacrifices granting Essence to angels, but I wouldn't want to put any work into that before their role in the game is more defined. What I already wrote exists only to justify the name of the Consuming Form.
    Given some extra thought (I've jumped back and forth in my reply a bit) I don't think it's a great idea to extend the effect to objects unless the Essence gained that way is limited in some sort (as in, if not used within the scene it automatically dissipates for some metaphysical reason). Making their horrendously painful form that literally burns you from within into their easiest Essence source would trivialise the horror of the form for the players.

    Their spiritual nature. I have yet to write a single thing about how they interact with spirits and the Shadow (with the sole exception of the Dying Form being more effective in interactions with spirits, but that's only because I needed a benefit for that form). How do they interact with Twilight? Can they even Reach to the Shadow?

    Originally posted by Khanwulf View Post
    PS. This, by the way, just shows that it really shouldn't be hard to do a good 2e treatment of other breeds, so long as the WtA affection of eco-terrorism and some other problematic bits are ditched. My assertion of priorities in conversation holds, and I note that the Forged are both more specialized and within their niche more potent than Uratha.
    I'm glad you liked it.

    I still haven't touched on one of the points that has recently been discussed, and that's their purpose (and in extension, their Harmony). While it might not require much word count rules-wise once decided, nailing a fitting purpose and gameplay loop can definitely be hard. I haven't skipped it just because I prefer to tinker with mechanics (although I do); I skipped it after having given much though about the subject and not being able to come up with anything good.
    There's also the problem I brought up way earlier about the Gift equivalents. Werewolf Gifts (including Shadow Gifts) really doesn't fit any other changing breed unless they're designed as "wolf in X clothing", imo. The way I did it would still require rewriting some Facets to make them stop referencing Uratha-exclusive stuff like granting Conditions designed for werewolves on Exceptional Successes or have modified effects during Kuruth.

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  • Master Aquatosic
    replied
    Do the Stoneforged still rage? How is their Harmony different from werewolves? How is it similar? Do they naturally form packs? What kind of natural weapons do they have? What is their Bane?

    Just stuff to think about.

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  • Khanwulf
    replied
    Originally posted by Tessie View Post
    The damage reduction is intended to replace the werewolf regeneration. A rock is fucking hard, but isn't great at mending itself once chipped or cracked. How many bashing a werewolf heals each turn is also how many bashing and lethal a Forged of equivalent power stat ignores each turn.
    But I do think it's not out of the question to let them heal or at least reduce healing times through Essence expenditure.
    First, I think all this is awesome and thank you for it Tessie.

    Generally they'll need some way to heal, and if they don't do it automatically (which is fair since that's a LOT of damage reduction) then spending essence in order to heal the same amount the Uratha do would be appropriate I think.

    Perhaps they can earn essence from burning things, melting metal and rock and the like, as well as humans? That way they could keep Consuming Form going longer if they're willing to be destructive. That's thematic to WtF.

    --Khanwulf

    PS. This, by the way, just shows that it really shouldn't be hard to do a good 2e treatment of other breeds, so long as the WtA affection of eco-terrorism and some other problematic bits are ditched. My assertion of priorities in conversation holds, and I note that the Forged are both more specialized and within their niche more potent than Uratha.

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  • Khanwulf
    replied
    Originally posted by Acrozatarim View Post
    Keep an eye on Dark Eras 2 for something relevant to this thread.
    We'll be delighted to learn more about DE2 as that's available. Hopefully soon.

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  • Tessie
    replied
    Originally posted by Master Aquatosic View Post
    Exactly how much damage does the Consuming Form inflict on itself per turn? And even if it can't be reduced, can it be healed magically? And do they still have Werewolf regeneration abilities?
    I was first thinking one lethal each turn but given some extra thought it's probably best if it's a number of bashing; that means the form is usable much more often and it doesn't take at least 1-2 days of recovery each time you rotate through the forms without spending Essence. That way it's also possible to increase the damage with the Burning Heart rating. Otherwise they wouldn't have any drawbacks with high Burning Heart ratings. I'd just make sure that each step that increases the damage also comes with substantial steps in other areas (their damage reduction, for example), like how each Gnosis step that increases Paradox dice also comes with a number of different increases to more positive factors.

    It can definitely be healed through supernatural means, just not prevented. The source of the damage is supernatural, but the damage itself is mundane once inflicted.

    The damage reduction is intended to replace the werewolf regeneration. A rock is fucking hard, but isn't great at mending itself once chipped or cracked. How many bashing a werewolf heals each turn is also how many bashing and lethal a Forged of equivalent power stat ignores each turn.
    But I do think it's not out of the question to let them heal or at least reduce healing times through Essence expenditure.

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  • Acrozatarim
    replied
    Keep an eye on Dark Eras 2 for something relevant to this thread.

    Leave a comment:


  • Master Aquatosic
    replied
    Exactly how much damage does the Consuming Form inflict on itself per turn? And even if it can't be reduced, can it be healed magically? And do they still have Werewolf regeneration abilities?

    Leave a comment:


  • Tessie
    replied
    Turns out I did think a bit more about them after all. I also reworked some Form advantages in the above post.

    Who are the Children of the Earth?
    Each Forged is an individual who has faced incredible hardships in life, but has always fought to come out on top. The First Change is triggered during a particularly difficult situation, often one that puts them in mortal peril.
    Their First Change is actually a series of changes, going through some or all of their Forms. They become empowered with the Creating Form, granting them additional tools for coming up with creative solutions for their problems. Should not be enough or take longer than a scene, the Forged-to-be channels new powers and form their first Towering Form, giving them the tools for going through perilous situations unharmed. If that too is not enough or takes too long they instead channel the power of the Consuming Form, burning any obstacles in their way.
    If the Stone-Forged succeeds in solving their current situation they are rewarded with the Burning Heart trait and become full members of their breed. However, no one who has reached the Dying Form seem to have survived the First Change. Perhaps the form simply lacks the tools to solve the situation that caused the Change in the first place, or it automatically dooms anyone who cannot overcome their struggles. Without stabilising their new existence their transformation chain remains broken and within the scene the potential Forged withers and collapses into a pile of ash and smouldering coal.
    All successfully changed Stone-Forged are granted one extra Attribute dot depending on in which form they stabilised, as seen below. This extra dot cannot bring an Attribute above five. Additionally, at least one of the free starting Gift dots needs to be in a Gift associated with that form.

    The only constant between different Stone-Forged are their troubled backgrounds. Other than that they may come from all ways of life and follow any creed. It has not yet been possible to predict who will face the First Change and become a Forged as it does not follow familial lines or exhibit any noticeable signs before the First Change. The few Wolf-Blooded who have become Stone-Forged have kept their Tells.

    Stabilised while in the Creating Form: Gain a dot in one Finesse Attribute
    Stabilised while in the Towering Form: Gain a dot in one Resistance Attribute
    Stabilised while in the Consuming Form: Gain a dot in one Power Attribute

    Edit: I'm really not happy at all with how I wrote the Gifts. I would definitely change that.
    Last edited by Tessie; 01-16-2019, 12:54 PM.

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  • Tessie
    replied
    Originally posted by Khanwulf View Post
    To your nitpick: sure, if you can think of a half-human/half-spirit offspring of, say, Luna and Mountain I'd love to see it. Would probably be a really interesting antagonist. Thing is though, that we can more easily imagine how an animal/human hybrid interacts with the world because both parts already do and give us examples. Trying to wrap the mind around other combinations of personified concepts is going to hurt at least as much as Mage does....

    --Khanwulf
    Oh, shit. Forgot to post this WIP that I'll never actually finish.



    This story is true. A pack of Uratha boasted far and wide about how they could take down any prey that dared to disturb their territory. Their teeth and claws sharp enough to pierce any shield or armour. Not even the horned titans were a match for these wolves.
    When the mountain finally caught ear of these wolves he laughed and called them fools. The People come and go in the blink of an eye. Surely they could not harm he who withstood the most destructive force of all; time? He mocked them and challenged them. This proved to be a mistake for the Uratha were merciless as they tore through the rock. Tooth and claw shredded the stone-flesh of the mountain and they dug deep, deep enough to pierce the very heart of the mountain. The wolves' victory was short-lived, however, as their fiery passion truly made fools of them and they were consumed in the molten blood that spewed from the mountain's heart. In an instant they were gone in a torrent of flaming stone that flowed relentlessly.
    Days later the ashes finally stirred. Were mountain and wolves fell, rose a new type of being. The fiery rage and overwhelming strength of the Uratha reforged in the fiery heart of a dying mountain.

    This story is often told to explain a rare type of shapeshifter that Uratha sometimes encounter known as the Stone-Forged, or Forged for short

    Children of the Earth

    New Trait: Burning Heart
    The Supernatural Potency trait of the Stone-Forged; it represents their connection with the fiery core within the earth itself. It is tied to the Forged's ability to store and use Essence, among other things. It also grants a resistance to all sources of harm (including those that would bypass natural armor, such as mental attacks and poisons) by ignoring an amount of damage each turn depending on their Burning Heart dot rating.

    The Four Forms
    Similar to werewolves, each Stone-Forged are capable of shifting between a number of different forms. Unlike werewolves, however, they need to cycle through them in a set pattern, from the Creating Form, to the Towering Form, to the Consuming Form, to the Dying Form, and finally back to the Creating Form. Shifting from one form to the next takes an instant action. They may spend Essence to speed through multiple shifts in a single turn, at the costs one Essence per "skipped" form. Many Stone-Forged opt to do it just to skip the painful sensation of the Consuming Form, not to mention the fire hazard.

    The Creating Form: This is based on the shifter's body before the First Change. While in this form the Stone-Forged enjoys increased manual dexterity and an uncanny ease when it comes to building or repairing all manner of things.
    Trait increases: +1 Dexterity
    Advantages: The Creating Form lends itself to all manner of crafts. All rolls relating to crafting and maintenance achieve an Exceptional Success on only three successes. Additionally, by spending one Essence they may suppress the Fragile and Volatile Conditions applied to any equipment they were to use during the scene. This effect does not extend to other people using the same equipment.
    Gifts: Shaping & Stealth

    The Towering Form: The Stone-Forged's skin takes on a rocky or metallic texture, becoming almost as hard as the material it looks like.
    Trait increases: +1 Strength, +3 Stamina, +1 Size
    Advantages: This gigantic and resilient form doubles the damage reduction gained from Burning Heart. Additionally, by spending one Essence they can ignore the effects of all personal Tilts this turn, as well as ignore all attempts to inflict new personal Tilts on the Stone-Forged. This may be done in response to an attack as long as the Forged is aware of the attack.
    Gifts: Strength & ?

    The Consuming Form: This lava-like form is lethal and even the surest foes are unwilling to tango with someone who is literally on fire. Unlike the other forms it cannot be maintained indefinitely as it burns the Stone-Forged for non-ignoreable damage each turn and is extremely painful as a result.
    Trait increases: +3 Strength, +1 Dexterity, +2 Stamina
    Advantages: The Stone-Forge automatically deals damage through touch alone due to their immense heat. Any human who dies while in contact with the Stone-Forged grants a number of Essence equal to their Integrity rating. Werewolves and other spiritual beings with Essence pools instead loses one Essence per two lethal damage inflicted by contact. The Essence is consumed by the fire and granted to the Forged.
    Gifts: Rage & ?

    The Dying Form: A black and grey, coal-like form with no immediately apparent benefits.
    Trait increases: -1 Strength, +2 Dexterity, -1 Stamina
    Advantages: The Dying Form achieves an Exceptional Success on any social interactions with both spirits and ghosts (and other ephemeral entities at the ST's discretion) on only three successes. Additionally, by spending one Essence they gain 9 Again on all Rites and other occult rituals performed during the scene. This does not apply to the activation rolls of Gifts.
    Gifts: Death & Warding

    Gifts
    The Stone-Forged develop Gifts differently from Uratha, expressing them without the assistance of spirits. As such all their Gifts are already unlocked even if they have no Facets in it. Due to this the available Gifts are more limited and can only be used in their associated Forms.
    Each Gift has a dot rating equal to number of known Facets which substitutes any mentions of Renown (in both dice pools and effects). Individual Facets are also reworked to work with the Forged instead of Uratha.

    Rites
    The Stone-Forged can learn their own versions of any Wolf and Pack Rites that aren't directly related to Uratha nature. If they participate in the Pack Rites of Uratha, they do get to contribute to the teamwork action as long as they perform the Rite in the Dying Form. They still need to fulfil other requirements such as belonging to the pack.
    Last edited by Tessie; 01-16-2019, 12:38 PM.

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  • Khanwulf
    replied
    Originally posted by Spectre9924 View Post

    I like the idea of them not necessarily being wolf blooded and it just being a wild assumption. I feel that would be a great place to allow for the diversity of changing breeds.
    I like the idea a product presenting at least three mutually contradictory possible origins for non-wolf based shapeshifters. Ranging from "wolves in X clothing" to "children of other Pangaeans" to "Luna's adopted bastards."

    Oh on that last item, another thought is that if Luna forces the change on a non-wolf blooded then she has to get the spirit part from somewhere and might just hoover up some other spirit to form the "base". So you get a half-human with an X spirit form welded on, where X is (probably) an animal-type spiritual manifestation.

    But back to the original point: changing breeds need to be presented in a fashion that makes them usable singularly and as a paradigm of different sorts in the setting. They have to wrap around the reality of wolves and do so with maximum accommodation to storyteller campaign plotting.

    --Khanwulf

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  • Bunyip
    replied
    Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
    WtF 2E makes TWO kinds of Wolf- Blooded - Daughters of Wolf ( shapechanging to Wolf) and Sons of Moon ( having Tells related to Shadow Realm). I easily see other Breeds Sons of Moon - and possibly their variant of Daughters of X.
    That’s pretty much flavour text, and maybe a cultural thing Uratha and Wolf-Blooded say, but it’s not really a divide between different “types” of Wolf-Blooded, or that they have literally different origins.

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