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  • Did we ever get an official answer as to whether Uratha deals lethal or bashing to spirits that they don't outrank by 2?

    If not, would a reasonable rule be If Uratha ranks lower than the spirit then bashing, if both rank the same lethal and if the Uratha outrank the spirit by 2 aggravated?

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    • Originally posted by LokiRavenSpeak View Post
      Did we ever get an official answer as to whether Uratha deals lethal or bashing to spirits that they don't outrank by 2?

      If not, would a reasonable rule be If Uratha ranks lower than the spirit then bashing, if both rank the same lethal and if the Uratha outrank the spirit by 2 aggravated?
      There were some comments by Bunyip that didn't explicitly answer this question, but came down pretty solidly on the side of "if it bleeds, [werewolves] can kill it", which to me rather suggests the intention is that they deal lethal.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by LokiRavenSpeak View Post
        Did we ever get an official answer as to whether Uratha deals lethal or bashing to spirits that they don't outrank by 2?

        If not, would a reasonable rule be If Uratha ranks lower than the spirit then bashing, if both rank the same lethal and if the Uratha outrank the spirit by 2 aggravated?
        As it is written in the book Uratha do lethal damage with fangs/teeth in all forms to all enemies, super or not, gauru does lethal with claws as well.

        Comment


        • Only their fangs have the mystical endowment of Lethal. Claws will do Lethal to humans, but not pierce a vampire's undead-numbness.

          I think it was a compromise. The vampire forum blew up for a little bit when it was suggested werewolves might be able to do Lethal to them with all their attacks.
          Last edited by nofather; 12-13-2017, 04:45 PM.

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          • Originally posted by Story Letter View Post

            As it is written in the book Uratha do lethal damage with fangs/teeth in all forms to all enemies, super or not, gauru does lethal with claws as well.
            Except that's not what the book says at all. What it says is that "[Uratha] bites in every form count as mystical sources to foes that are vulnerable to such sources" and names vampires as an example. There is no clarification as to what it means for a foe to be "vulnerable to mystical sources", a statement which is only further muddled by the fact that Vampire itself has a passing mention of vampires only taking bashing from "most non-supernatural weapons" with no clarification of that statement, either.

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            • Originally posted by Terrorforge View Post
              Except that's not what the book says at all. What it says is that "[Uratha] bites in every form count as mystical sources to foes that are vulnerable to such sources" and names vampires as an example. There is no clarification as to what it means for a foe to be "vulnerable to mystical sources", a statement which is only further muddled by the fact that Vampire itself has a passing mention of vampires only taking bashing from "most non-supernatural weapons" with no clarification of that statement, either.
              On the contrary the book supports me:

              GAURU Teeth and Claws: Claw attacks deal +2 lethal damage.
              Bites deal +2 lethal damage and do not require a grapple.


              DALU
              Teeth and Claws: Unarmed attacks with the werewolf’s
              claws deal lethal damage to humans. While in a grapple,
              successful bite attacks (see p. 167) deal lethal damage

              The answer to this issue is specified in every form, gauru does lethal with fang and claw to all targets, end of story, since there are no other mentionings, this is how it works.
              Dalu does lethal with fangs and bashing to all except humans to take lethal from dalu claws, uratha also do lethal to spirits (and vampires) with Urshul claws as well as described in the same teeth and claw section.


              THE PREDATOR’S JAWS
              ''Their teeth carry the deadly
              resonance of Father Wolf, the ultimate hunter. As
              such, their bites in every form count as mystical
              sources to foes that are vulnerable to such sources.''


              This is a side note that specifies that uratha jaws in all forms do lethal damage, even in hishu, it has nothing to do with the ability of uratha to do lethal with gauru claws,

              Now the ''if'' and ''what'' is vulnerable to such damage its up to the ST, but in general anything that can take the role of predator and prey is vulnerable to such mystical sources.
              Last edited by Story Letter; 12-14-2017, 07:16 AM.

              Comment


              • Back in Vampire, I remember one reason people being opposed to werewolf bites dealing lethal to vampires and Strix was because it “cheapens” vampires and Strix. While it’s something I don’t agree with, I do hope that the upcoming Contagion Chronicles (or any other crossover source) do address that concern.


                MtAw Homebrew: Even more Legacies, updated to 2E

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                • Originally posted by Story Letter View Post

                  On the contrary the book supports me:

                  The answer to this issue is specified in every form, gauru does lethal with fang and claw to all targets, end of story, since there are no other mentionings, this is how it works.
                  Dalu does lethal with fangs and bashing to all except humans to take lethal from dalu claws, uratha also do lethal to spirits (and vampires) with Urshul claws as well as described in the same teeth and claw section.

                  This is a side note that specifies that uratha jaws in all forms do lethal damage, even in hishu, it has nothing to do with the ability of uratha to do lethal with gauru claws,

                  Now the ''if'' and ''what'' is vulnerable to such damage its up to the ST, but in general anything that can take the role of predator and prey is vulnerable to such mystical sources.
                  All weapons are said to deal lethal damage as well so that is no different from how WW claws and teeth work. The thing is, vampires (and many undead I believe) are specifically said to take bashing damage from lethal damage sources. The exception is WW teeth since for some inexplicable reason they are special. (Even as a WW storyteller I don't like this).

                  Now spirits I believe only take bashing from WW that don't outrank them, they only take lethal from their banes. But spirits are "killed" as soon as they fill up on lethal so it is kind of the same as aggravated damage.

                  The one issue also have with the whole teeth=lethal to vamps is it has trained my players to never attack with anything else. They always go for the bite. It tends to get tedious to describe for the 20th time in a single fight how they bite their foe this particular time.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Cainite View Post

                    All weapons are said to deal lethal damage as well so that is no different from how WW claws and teeth work. The thing is, vampires (and many undead I believe) are specifically said to take bashing damage from lethal damage sources. The exception is WW teeth since for some inexplicable reason they are special. (Even as a WW storyteller I don't like this).

                    Now spirits I believe only take bashing from WW that don't outrank them, they only take lethal from their banes. But spirits are "killed" as soon as they fill up on lethal so it is kind of the same as aggravated damage.

                    The one issue also have with the whole teeth=lethal to vamps is it has trained my players to never attack with anything else. They always go for the bite. It tends to get tedious to describe for the 20th time in a single fight how they bite their foe this particular time.
                    There's a sidebar in the corebook of 2e as to why Uratha, which literally means Slayer in First Tongue bypass mystical damage imperviousness. Nevermind their whole original deal was to be able to shepherd the most fundamental aspects of reality.

                    Regarding spirits, that's only if the spirit is in twilight. Materialized or Hisil poluling spirits take lethal.

                    Maybe stop tossing vampiric antagonists to werewolves? Poisoned blood Sharta should get in vogue.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Cainite View Post
                      All weapons are said to deal lethal damage as well so that is no different from how WW claws and teeth work. The thing is, vampires (and many undead I believe) are specifically said to take bashing damage from lethal damage sources. The exception is WW teeth since for some inexplicable reason they are special. (Even as a WW storyteller I don't like this).
                      Supernatural damage.

                      From Blood & Smoke, 'Kindred take only bashing damage from many sources that would normally cause lethal damage to humans. This includes most non-supernatural weapons.' Rose has stated exceptions from non-supernatural weapons can include devastating things like a shotgun blast to the head or face. But it does imply that supernatural weapons (such as the mystical fangs of the thing that created Predators in the first place) would pierce the defense. If people didn't make such a fuss the first time around, they would probably have more options as it's likely claws would count too.

                      This seems like if it's something you had a problem with would be the simplest thing in the world to house rule. 'They cause bashing.'
                      Last edited by nofather; 12-14-2017, 11:30 AM.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Cainite View Post

                        All weapons are said to deal lethal damage as well so that is no different from how WW claws and teeth work. The thing is, vampires (and many undead I believe) are specifically said to take bashing damage from lethal damage sources. The exception is WW teeth since for some inexplicable reason they are special. (Even as a WW storyteller I don't like this).
                        Not lethaal damage sources, but mundane lethal damage sources, there is quite the difference. Anything that does lethal and is part of the mystical does lethal to vampires, for instance a mountain lion spirit will do lethal to a vampire while a normal mountain lion will do bashing.

                        Originally posted by Cainite View Post
                        Now spirits I believe only take bashing from WW that don't outrank them, they only take lethal from their banes. But spirits are "killed" as soon as they fill up on lethal so it is kind of the same as aggravated damage.
                        Spirits take lethal from all uratha natural weapons that do lethal, except dalu and urhan claws, now if a werewolf hits a spirit with a normal sword it will do bashing, but if the sword is a fetish weapon it will do lethal.
                        No spirits take aggravated damage from their banes, aggravated damage also makes them lose essence. Spirits fear and respect uratha, appart froma hating them.

                        Originally posted by Cainite View Post
                        The one issue also have with the whole teeth=lethal to vamps is it has trained my players to never attack with anything else. They always go for the bite. It tends to get tedious to describe for the 20th time in a single fight how they bite their foe this particular time.
                        See? The only teeth thing created a story mood issue, let your players have flexibility in order to have more fun. If you are troubled in what to follow, in order to be right in a campaign, follow the road of good mood and atmosphere. Not like:
                        -Player: I bite him
                        -Story Teller: Not again *facepalm*
                        Last edited by Story Letter; 12-14-2017, 12:12 PM.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Malus View Post

                          Regarding spirits, that's only if the spirit is in twilight. Materialized or Hisil poluling spirits take lethal.

                          Maybe stop tossing vampiric antagonists to werewolves? Poisoned blood Sharta should get in vogue.
                          A werewolf in Hisil deals lethal to spirits in Hisil? Oh. I had this idea from somewhere that something like a rank 3 spirit should be a challenge to several werewolves, but even a rank 3 spirit is almost as easy to kill as a tough human? They do of course have high defence but they don't have armor and such right in the Hisil, since they are formed of spirit stuff? Or can they?

                          I have stopped giving them vampires to feed on so they probably won't fight them much anymore, but your idea of giving the enemies a highly poisonous blood is a great idea. Will need to try that soonish.

                          Originally posted by nofather View Post

                          This seems like if it's something you had a problem with would be the simplest thing in the world to house rule. 'They cause bashing.'
                          Yeah I was really considering of house ruling it but they had faced vampires a few times by then and I didn't want to go and change the rules around during the same "game". Never played any nWoD stuff really before starting this campaign so didn't realize beforehand.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Story Letter View Post
                            The answer to this issue is specified in every form, gauru does lethal with fang and claw to all targets, end of story, since there are no other mentionings, this is how it works.
                            Uh, no. It's specified that werewolf teeth and claws deal lethal damage, but all weapons do that. The only thing that specifically mentions any kind of ability to bypass damage resistance is the Predator's Jaws sidebar, which is very vague. To me it sounds like they should count as the Bane of any entity they fight, but that is clearly not the intention. It could also be interpreted as werewolf teeth counting as "supernatural" for things that care about that, which is pretty much just vampires. Maybe. That rule is pretty vague in itself.

                            From the developer commentary though it seems that the intention was that they deal lethal to pretty much everything, but the problem is that's not actually stated in the book. Hence this recurring debate.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Cainite View Post
                              A werewolf in Hisil deals lethal to spirits in Hisil? Oh. I had this idea from somewhere that something like a rank 3 spirit should be a challenge to several werewolves, but even a rank 3 spirit is almost as easy to kill as a tough human? They do of course have high defence but they don't have armor and such right in the Hisil, since they are formed of spirit stuff? Or can they?
                              They can. They can also have weapons. They're far tougher than humans.

                              Comment


                              • Any tips on how to make fights in Werewolf exiting and challenging to the players? I have 3 players regularly and am having a tough time keeping them on their toes. The only thing that seems to work is having more enemies than there are players, but I find it hard to keep track of combat when there are 3-4 good guys against 4-5 bad guys. Especially with tracking initiatives with different weapons and the werewolves changing forms from turn to turn. Do you maybe have a good system of how to keep track of health and initiative?

                                EDIT:
                                Originally posted by nofather View Post

                                They can. They can also have weapons. They're far tougher than humans.
                                For some reason I always thought that while in the Hisil the spirits can't have armor, that they don't really have seperate 'parts' if that makes any sense. I thought things like armor would be represented by having high Resistance, hence more Corpus and Defence.
                                Last edited by Cainite; 12-14-2017, 12:40 PM.

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