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Ask a simple question, get a simple answer: Werewolf 2e Edition

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  • Ask a simple question, get a simple answer: Werewolf 2e Edition

    I know -I- could use a thread like this while I'm digesting the new core, so I figured it would be helpful for multiple people.

    First question: if I combine Gaze of the Moon from Gift of Dominance with Gaze of the Moon from Gift of Change, how long would the resulting Awestruck condition last? Since it only inflicts Lunancy for a moment and Awestruck lasts until the being stops inflicting Lunacy, RAW says it'd last for only a moment before resetting...but that seems a little iffy.

  • monteparnas
    replied
    Originally posted by Satchel View Post
    An extra +2 Damage for the scene upon activation is plenty, is what what I'm getting at with all this.
    I'd add to that that a passive, fixed, permanent bonus is the simplest benefit, but also the easiest way to end up with something that breaks the game because you put too much into that decision of deciding the number of the bonus.

    As a rule of thumb the method the game chose works better: define a condition where the weapon does something, and then what it does, so it isn't working all the time and it does something relevant but different from just more damage. Partly because it makes for more interesting fetishes, partly because it gives you a lot more control over how useful or useless the weapon will be in the game, easier both to figure out it before hand and to adjust things later if you miss the spot.

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  • Satchel
    replied
    Originally posted by Warriorshaman View Post
    Fetish Weapon Creation:

    By using the rules in the book we can create fetish weapon from rank 1 to 5. However, I have a hard time picturing the general power I should allow them to be.

    At 4, it is said that the weapon may get increased damage. Alright, but by how much ? +1 is not the same as +3. +1 with Rote, or 9 again or 8 again is not the same also...
    The sample four-dot fetish weapon has as its effect the permanent infliction of a Personal Tilt on the first enemy struck by it in the scene in which it is activated. The sample three-dot fetish weapon allows its wielder to strike beings in Twilight and identify their nature. The example powers for a two-dot fetish include increasing the equipment bonus of functionally-a-modern-technological-item by the fetish's rating

    Every level of weapon damage is functionally equivalent to a bonus success on the attack roll, most weapons below Size 3 don't have a Damage rating higher than 2. Permanently increasing the Damage of one of the natural weapons of one of your forms by +1 is a four-dot Merit, and most forms' default Damage rating for those weapons is +1 or +0, the Killing Form being a particularly notable exception (+2 lethal, can establish grapples in addition to causing damage, and gets an Initiative bonus where most weapons apply an Initiative penalty commensurate with their Damage rating).

    An extra +2 Damage for the scene upon activation is plenty, is what what I'm getting at with all this.


    At 5, it is even more powerfull than that. It does make sens, but to me, the rules are loose and seems a little imprecise. I know its by design, but I need help figuring out, lets say a sword, with ehanced damage. How much more damage would it deliver than usual ? Would it be all the time, for the scene, during a single turn of activation ? Need help here. Thanks.
    A fetish weapon rated at five dots is going to have something more substantial going for it than a heightened Damage rating — again, "remove a limb on a successful hit" is the effect of the sample four-dot fetish weapon and "weapon that can strike ephemera" is a three-dot fetish. Weapons that also destroy Willpower or Essence are given as an example. If one were to go as plain as possible, a five-dot fetish weapon with a respectable Damage rating in aggravated harm would work just fine, as might an completely ignoring Armor and/or Defense, or a successful hit immediately causing the target to start bleeding out.

    Given that an average mortal has 7 Health and the most lopsided conceptual Dihir can still have 20 Corpus and 6 Defense, going much further than Damage 5 — the damage rating of a chainsaw, so unwieldy that it inflicts a -6 Initiative penalty to use in combat, needs both hands to use effectively, and requires above-average Strength to use without penalty — is probably excessive.

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  • Warriorshaman
    replied
    Fetish Weapon Creation:

    By using the rules in the book we can create fetish weapon from rank 1 to 5. However, I have a hard time picturing the general power I should allow them to be.

    At 4, it is said that the weapon may get increased damage. Alright, but by how much ? +1 is not the same as +3. +1 with Rote, or 9 again or 8 again is not the same also...
    At 5, it is even more powerfull than that. It does make sens, but to me, the rules are loose and seems a little imprecise. I know its by design, but I need help figuring out, lets say a sword, with ehanced damage. How much more damage would it deliver than usual ? Would it be all the time, for the scene, during a single turn of activation ? Need help here. Thanks.

    Leave a comment:


  • monteparnas
    replied
    Originally posted by Helur View Post
    What about Hit and Run ? It's reflexive but I clearly read you must be "engaged in combat". Also, allowing it during an ambush would mean being immune to any kind of stealth attack.
    "Engaged in combat" is their (poorly written) way of saying that you can't use it in response to an ambush, as an exception to what would be expected. As Satchel exemplified very well, we can verify effects similar in both purpose and mechanics (if not entirely equal) to confirm that they presume such action being possible as baseline rule, then make the power specifically an exception. So we do have enough data to confidently interpret an unclear phrase as meaning this is also such a case, the rule would have it that you can, but the specific power is an exception, so you can't.

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  • Helur
    replied
    Originally posted by Satchel View Post
    Hit and Run interrupts an action before it's taken in a way that does require awareness — it's an interruption-based power, not one of the Facets that automatically activates for free in the right circumstances, and of the analogous powers in other gamelines, Celerity (Vampire) explicitly can't be used to interrupt actions you're not aware of, Acceleration (Mage) and Alacrity (Deviant) model interruption as choosing when to take your within the Initiative order (when being ambushed deprives you of your ability to take an action), Unravel the Tapestry (Changeling) works post-hoc as short-term time-travel, and Shadow of Time Tier 3's Ba 5 bonus (Mummy) is an added effect on a power that already makes you immune to surprise and ambush anyway by letting you see the immediate future.
    Thanks that makes sense. It seems stupid but the lenguage barrier for me is not easy to overcome when it's a matter of rules. Words can be confusing and sometimes I must ask or interpretate some rules.

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  • Satchel
    replied
    Originally posted by Helur View Post
    What about Hit and Run ? It's reflexive but I clearly read you must be "engaged in combat". Also, allowing it during an ambush would mean being immune to any kind of stealth attack.
    Hit and Run interrupts an action before it's taken in a way that does require awareness — it's an interruption-based power, not one of the Facets that automatically activates for free in the right circumstances, and of the analogous powers in other gamelines, Celerity (Vampire) explicitly can't be used to interrupt actions you're not aware of, Acceleration (Mage) and Alacrity (Deviant) model interruption as choosing when to take your within the Initiative order (when being ambushed deprives you of your ability to take an action), Unravel the Tapestry (Changeling) works post-hoc as short-term time-travel, and Shadow of Time Tier 3's Ba 5 bonus (Mummy) is an added effect on a power that already makes you immune to surprise and ambush anyway by letting you see the immediate future.

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  • Helur
    replied
    Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
    Yes, as many rule books, CoD has a problem with language here and there.

    If you take it literally by RAW, as you theoretically should be able to, you'll have a paradox as many other rules and systems work based on the assumption that Reflexive Actions are an exception. This is not just a matter of RAI vs RAW, it is RAW conflicting with itself here and there. Basically a character wouldn't roll anything when denied actions, neither would do anything that can be defined as an action, even if it is something as breathing or just be on a continuity of their movement.

    So this is a case where we fix RAW by using context to figure the probable meaning of the words. Because while rules should be precise and strict, they're conveyed through a language that isn't neither. It is not so much a problem with the rules and more a problem with the choice of words where it is really tricky. RAI is applied as a secondary tool, from the analysis of the competing rules, and this makes it clear that most of the time Reflexive Actions were thought as not being impeded by surprise, and surprise is probably trying to prohibit conscious actions while avoiding to state an action type because the author of the line couldn't yet know if Instant would be the only source of relevant conscious actions.
    What about Hit and Run ? It's reflexive but I clearly read you must be "engaged in combat". Also, allowing it during an ambush would mean being immune to any kind of stealth attack.

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  • monteparnas
    replied
    Originally posted by Helur View Post
    But the book specifiy that reflexive actions are actions. And a successful ambush doesn't allow you to take action. But at the same time, reflexive are described as breathing and similar. I am very confused about it. This leads me to other doubts.
    Yes, as many rule books, CoD has a problem with language here and there.

    If you take it literally by RAW, as you theoretically should be able to, you'll have a paradox as many other rules and systems work based on the assumption that Reflexive Actions are an exception. This is not just a matter of RAI vs RAW, it is RAW conflicting with itself here and there. Basically a character wouldn't roll anything when denied actions, neither would do anything that can be defined as an action, even if it is something as breathing or just be on a continuity of their movement.

    So this is a case where we fix RAW by using context to figure the probable meaning of the words. Because while rules should be precise and strict, they're conveyed through a language that isn't neither. It is not so much a problem with the rules and more a problem with the choice of words where it is really tricky. RAI is applied as a secondary tool, from the analysis of the competing rules, and this makes it clear that most of the time Reflexive Actions were thought as not being impeded by surprise, and surprise is probably trying to prohibit conscious actions while avoiding to state an action type because the author of the line couldn't yet know if Instant would be the only source of relevant conscious actions.

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  • Helur
    replied
    Originally posted by Tessie View Post
    1.) As thoroughly explained, treating reflexive actions in this case as actions is wholly nonsensical.

    2.) Whenever the books refer to just an "action", 99% of the time they mean instant actions.

    3.) The surprise rules makes a character both lose their action and Defense. Applying Defense is a reflexive action, so that part would be redundant. If it's meant to be a reminder it would be worded as "meaning the character doesn't get to apply her Defense".

    By a very literal reading, you wouldn't get to do any reflexive actions, but that's ignoring hos the language is generally used in the books and what's reasonable for the rules.



    No, you can't. Chase Down is an ability that takes an instant action to activate but can be used outside your turn in the initiative. If you can't take instant actions, you can't interrupt others.

    Also, Rote Action on attack rolls that you can't apply Defense for is fucking insane, even if you still have access to reflexive damage mitigation. In the first turn of combat, the Irraka is by far a more efficient killer than any Rahu.
    Yes my bad , I confused with the reflexive expenditure of essence

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  • Tessie
    replied
    1.) As thoroughly explained, treating reflexive actions in this case as actions is wholly nonsensical.

    2.) Whenever the books refer to just an "action", 99% of the time they mean instant actions.

    3.) The surprise rules makes a character both lose their action and Defense. Applying Defense is a reflexive action, so that part would be redundant. If it's meant to be a reminder it would be worded as "meaning the character doesn't get to apply her Defense".

    By a very literal reading, you wouldn't get to do any reflexive actions, but that's ignoring hos the language is generally used in the books and what's reasonable for the rules.

    Originally posted by Helur View Post
    Like, if I'm ambushed while in urhan I can spend essence to interrupt his action. This would be uhm...weird. Basically irraka would be almost useless.
    No, you can't. Chase Down is an ability that takes an instant action to activate but can be used outside your turn in the initiative. If you can't take instant actions, you can't interrupt others.

    Also, Rote Action on attack rolls that you can't apply Defense for is fucking insane, even if you still have access to reflexive damage mitigation. In the first turn of combat, the Irraka is by far a more efficient killer than any Rahu.
    Last edited by Tessie; 04-24-2022, 05:20 AM.

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  • Helur
    replied
    Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
    It can be used. Reflexive Actions can be used, a lot of example Reflexive actions make perfectly sense to be used while surprised, some are specifically meant for such kind of situation, and as a defensive reflex there's no reason for Berserker's Might to be an exception.

    Reflexive Actions are that, reflexes. While they involve the player's conscious decision to use, for the character they're that, a reflex, something that just happens unless they consciously suppress it.
    But the book specifiy that reflexive actions are actions. And a successful ambush doesn't allow you to take action. But at the same time, reflexive are described as breathing and similar. I am very confused about it. This leads me to other doubts. Like, if I'm ambushed while in urhan I can spend essence to interrupt his action. This would be uhm...weird. Basically irraka would be almost useless.
    Last edited by Helur; 04-24-2022, 02:38 AM.

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  • Satchel
    replied
    Originally posted by Bunyip View Post
    Reflexive actions are still actions. They’re defined as actions in the ‘Actions’ section, and Surprise specifically says “Any character who fails the roll cannot take an action in the first turn of combat”. Not “instant action”, not “extended action”, not even “an action except reflexive actions”, literally ‘cannot take an action’.
    I will repeat: This reading results in nonsensical outcomes like "if you ambush someone you can automatically succeed at any supernatural power targeting them that is resolved as a contested action, because reflexive actions are actions and therefore they can't take the reflexive action of contesting the power."

    On the same page where reflexive actions are defined, the definition of contested actions says that a contested action takes up the action of the person initiating the action, then contrasts this with the person resisting the action by specifying that the resistance is a reflexive action.

    For all practical purposes in this system, unless stated otherwise, a reflexive action is not an action for the purposes of mechanics that reference "actions;" Deviant models Involuntary Variations activating themselves as reflexive actions and can involve triggers that don't require the character to be conscious. Mage models activating Mage Armor as a reflexive action and specifies that the forms of that Attainment that increase Defense apply against surprise attacks. Changeling has a Contract that activates reflexively if the character who knows it dies and has the Glamour to pay its cost. The Poisoned Tilt models counteracting its damage from turn to turn as a reflexive action and then defines intending to "act" as "[taking] a non-reflexive action." The Stamina roll to stay conscious with a full track of damage is a reflexive action. Rolling Dexterity + Athletics to reduce fall damage is a reflexive action.

    I'm not super eager to rehash an argument from six years ago with a slightly different coat of paint over whether or not a werewolf ambushed in Dalu, Urshul, or Gauru with a point of Essence in their system ought not be able to reduce the damage from a single attack by their Glory or undo a single Tilt, particularly since on this subject there is no ambiguity save the semantic. "Reflexive actions are actions" is not a sound argument in the face of substantial evidence that, in the sense under discussion, they aren't.

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  • Helur
    replied
    Originally posted by Bunyip View Post

    Correct. Reflexive actions are still actions.
    Thanks. We solved it without giving a chance to take any action to the ambushed, even reflexive. Because the book says "the character loses his action" . But we still had some doubts since the description of a reflexive action is something like " natural as breathing".

    It was a carnage btw. Irraka with eviscerate and slaughterer went for the kill, swallowing flesh.

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  • Bunyip
    replied
    Originally posted by Satchel View Post
    Reflexive actions can specifically be taken at any time and don't take your turn in combat, and Berserker's Might in particular is one of the types of Facets werewolves specifically use instinctively in Basu-Im; its use is already throttled by being limited to once per turn (and, to a lesser extent, costing Essence and having a form requirement).
    Reflexive actions are still actions. They’re defined as actions in the ‘Actions’ section, and Surprise specifically says “Any character who fails the roll cannot take an action in the first turn of combat”. Not “instant action”, not “extended action”, not even “an action except reflexive actions”, literally ‘cannot take an action’.

    Surprise isn’t ‘some guy jumped me and I had a moment to react’, it’s ‘the first I knew I was under attack was when their claws were already buried deep in my back’. Your chance to notice and do something was the Wits + Composure roll, if you fail that, you don’t know anything’s happening until you’re either injured or the attacker misses and in doing so alerts you to their presence.
    Last edited by Bunyip; 04-24-2022, 01:11 AM.

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