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Best Favored Form for a Rahu Blood Talon

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  • Lionel
    started a topic Best Favored Form for a Rahu Blood Talon

    Best Favored Form for a Rahu Blood Talon

    I'm playing a Blood Talon Rahu (yay stereotypes) and I'm pretty much trying to become Death, Destroyer of worlds. I've never played a Rahu or a Blood Talon, but basically I want to be able to beat any werewolf in a brawl.

    I ask this because there are various merits (Favored Form, Fortified Form, Living Weapon) that apply to a specific form and none else. It's highly unlikely I'll have enough experience to bolster all my forms (and with favored form you can only ever choose one), so what's the best form to bolster with the idea that I will often be facing other werewolves?


    I am leaning toward Urshul for various reasons. My fighting style is the Relentless Assault style, which can be used in any form. Meaning that the primary advantage of the Dalu form is less important. I can only hold Garou form for 4 turns currently so it seems like a waste to put all that experience into a form I can only hold for a few seconds at a time.

    But at the same time, I expect I'll be fighting Werewolves in Garou form often enough that Garou is the only real response. Even if I add all the extra stats and armor to Urshul I am either making my Garou form obsolete/myself less likely to use it orrrr I'm just being suboptimal for fighting other Garou.

    The benefits of Garou (all day regen and screw your defense) are sort of more valuable than anything I can do to my Urshul form, but putting all that experience into a form that lasts so short seems unwise. What do y'all think.


    Also any further suggestions to help reach my character goals would be great. I currently have Slaughterer and Primal Strength as my facets, and my merits are basically just relentless assault and the Demolisher merit.
    Last edited by Lionel; 07-30-2015, 03:25 PM.

  • monteparnas
    replied
    The problem is that if they didn't ignored each other, you would risk to fall into Kuruth with him before leaving. So sometimes Kuruth would lead to at least two pack members in frenzied Rage fighting close. As soon as there are no targets nearby (almost guaranteed to happen in less than 10 minutes), they would tear each other's throats.

    If you want to make it more deadly, I would recommend to get rid of both the contagion and the "ignore pack members also in Kuruth" part.

    Or let it be the way it is. I personally like the idea of the entire pack in Kuruth because of one member.

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  • Tymeaus Jalynsfein
    replied
    No worries... It just seems that people are of the opinion that Kuruth in 2nd Edition is a viable and pursuable option to use to help end fights, and to me that is just ludicrous. Apologies if I took your statements a bit out of context.

    And yes, I do believe that I far prefer 1e Kuruth to 2nd Edition. Don't get me wrong here, 2nd Edition Kuruth has some interesting things about it (it is far more of a problem, though one that you can still take steps to avoid pretty efficiently), but using it to end fights is not one of them.

    Add contagious Kuruth to you not ignoring your packmates as targets and you'll have TPK happening a lot.
    Did want to comment on the above, though. I do not see it that particular way, mostly because a Werewolf in Kuruth is something that you do not stick around. If you have your Pack trying to stay with your Raging Werewolf fellow, then you are doing it wrong. Even in 2nd Edition, a Pack Mate goes Kuruth, you should not be sticking around such that you are succumbing to the contagion effect... you should be vacating the area at the fastest and most direct route available to you while he starts killing things around her.
    Last edited by Tymeaus Jalynsfein; 08-07-2015, 11:04 AM.

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  • monteparnas
    replied
    Yes, my bad there.

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  • Charlaquin
    replied
    Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
    1st ed didn't had contagious Kuruth. Add contagious Kuruth to you not ignoring your packmates as targets and you'll have TPK happening a lot.

    (...)

    By the way, go for the descriptions of Rahu and Elodoth in 2nd ed and you'll see the game clearly stating that Kuruth can and should be used sparingly as a weapon.
    Tymaeus' point seems to be that these things are exactly why he prefers 1e Kuruth.

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  • monteparnas
    replied
    Originally posted by Tymeaus Jalynsfein
    Interesting, since I have never actually experienced a TPK when Kuruth reared its ugly head. When Kuruth happens, those around the werewolf tend to not stick around while the Werewolf destroys things and kills people. PC's that stick around (WHY, Exactly?) while the raging wolf is doing its thing really tend to deserve what they get, in my opinion. Maybe it is a play style difference. Yes, Kuruth Happens...
    1st ed didn't had contagious Kuruth. Add contagious Kuruth to you not ignoring your packmates as targets and you'll have TPK happening a lot.

    About my point, you just took it out of context. And I don't think it should be a good thing either, much less "embrace as a lover". Are you nuts!? But to use it as a dangerous resource is in keeping with the game themes. It should be a possibility, even if one full of danger.

    By the way, go for the descriptions of Rahu and Elodoth in 2nd ed and you'll see the game clearly stating that Kuruth can and should be used sparingly as a weapon.

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  • Darksider
    replied
    There are more than a couple of ways to avoid Basu Im, if you aren't investing in getting them I don't think you're playing wisely. It's a big enough deal that I'd want multiple people in the pack capable of getting their packmates out of Kuruth.

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  • Amravanti
    replied
    Originally posted by Tymeaus Jalynsfein View Post
    So, I am curious... What tends to happen at your table when Kuruth triggers and a werewolf starts killing people and destroying things? Why do you assume that it is a game ender if played up as the single most horrifying thing that can happen to you as a werewolf?
    Funny you ask this. I just started a game and in the first session we had one Basu Im and one Wasu Im (near call, but Chain Rage managed to pull him out of it).

    Keep in mind that your years (and mine) of experience with Death Rage are largely irrelevant, because the Domino effect is a 2nd Edition addition and dramatically improves the likeliness of multiple death rages per session. That, and the fact that the range of triggers is now much more varied due to personal triggers means that Death Rage happens in a lot of different and unpredictable ways now.

    Our Cahalith has the Moon set of triggers, and considering our environment and the fact that we begun the game during the Gibbous Moon, halfway through the session due to various events, he heard a howl and that was it. Wasu Im. He managed to pull himself out.

    But later our Ithaeur went full death rage in a crowd of distinguished politicians and other influential party guests. We had to stop her, for various common sense reasons. She killed a whole bunch of them. If my Rahu wasn't a verified badass who was stronger in Hishu than our Ithaeur even in Garou form (with the help of primal strength) we could have been in serious trouble. Anyway, I wrestled her out of the room and that was that.

    Anyway, it was a great moment and that more or less is Kuruth behaving as it should. Inconvenient and savage, sure, but that's the game.

    However my concern is what would happen if my character went into Death Rage. With Primal Strength, Slaughterer and Predator's Unmatched Pursuit + the full Relentless Assault style, there is no way my going into death rage doesn't kill my packmates. Especially if there's no one around to distract my character. None of them can run fast enough to escape me, it is very likely that I will do more than their health in even if they are in Garou. (17 die attack pool in with 8-again and + 5 damage on hit). I guess that's what Wasu Im is for.
    Last edited by Amravanti; 08-05-2015, 03:46 PM.

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  • Tymeaus Jalynsfein
    replied
    Hmmm...
    Interesting, since I have never actually experienced a TPK when Kuruth reared its ugly head. When Kuruth happens, those around the werewolf tend to not stick around while the Werewolf destroys things and kills people. PC's that stick around (WHY, Exactly?) while the raging wolf is doing its thing really tend to deserve what they get, in my opinion. Maybe it is a play style difference. Yes, Kuruth Happens...

    So, I am curious... What tends to happen at your table when Kuruth triggers and a werewolf starts killing people and destroying things? Why do you assume that it is a game ender if played up as the single most horrifying thing that can happen to you as a werewolf?

    1st - You are right, if players stay around to be killed when Jane goes Kuruth, it is not the system that is Silly, it is the Player Characters. Kuruth is the embodiment of Horror. Yes, destroy NPC's that are beloved. Yes, Destroy allies or locations that are beloved. And if the PC's are bound and determined to stick it out in the same location with Jane, destroy a character or two. It is, after all, Kuruth.

    2nd - Kuruth IS meant to be avoided. Says so right on the box. When you go Kuruth, people die and things get destroyed. You do not USE Kuruth, KURUTH USES YOU. And you are the poorer for it. Never have I seen a chronicle destroyed because someone went Kuruth. Does not mean that the characters should seek it out.

    I truly am curious about your perspective on this, because I do not really understand it. The ONE aspect of visceral horror that is endemic to Werewolf is not something that you should embrace as a lover. You can come to grips with it, you can accept that when it happens bad things follow, but you NEVER seek it out as something you CHOOSE to employ as a tactic. That way leads madness, pain and suffering.



    From my perspective in our campaign... After 500+ Karma and several years of play time, I can count the number of times one of our pack members have gone into Kuruth on one hand. Looking at that, I think it is an amazing accomplishment, to be honest, but not all that much, because as a pack, we decided that such a loss of control was bad for us, and our territory, and we took steps to minimize its occurrences. Mercy Gems are an amazing Fetish. In the end, it only enhanced our reputation. We maintain control in even the most dire of circumstances, and that makes people more than a little wary of you. Win/WIn as far as we were concerned. And yes, when it DID happen (as it will inevitably happen, no matter what precautions you take against it), for one reason or the other, it was a terrifying and horrific moment that sent ripples across the territory. It enhanced the campaign, it did not destroy it. Which is why I am not really understanding your point.
    Last edited by Tymeaus Jalynsfein; 08-05-2015, 09:10 AM.

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  • monteparnas
    replied
    Tough I think Kuruth have to be something to fear and avoid on most cases, to make it an recurrent source of TPK is just poor for the game.

    First, I don't want a game about "ok, Jane went into Rage, new sheets everyone!". It isn't horror, it is silly. Have the blood of an NPC beloved by the characters, or even relevant to the game, is horrific. Maybe a Retainer or an Ally (Sanctity of Merits always in mind, tough). But not to make it easy for the kill of another PC.

    Second, I don't want a mechanic meant to be avoided, not used. Kuruth should be something to fear and use with caution, but also bound to happen sometimes without destroying the chronicle.

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  • Tymeaus Jalynsfein
    replied
    Originally posted by Elfive View Post
    Yeah, and that leads one to wonder "why are werewolves not extinct again?" I much prefer a setting in which every character isn't a ticking time bomb.
    In what way...
    There are ways to avoid/minimize Kuruth, in either Edition. When it happens it should be horrifying, terrible and tragic, not only to those around the werewolf, but to the werewolf itself. It should never be an option one seeks to gain an edge (and to me, Choosing to enter Basu-Im is just such a tactic).
    Last edited by Tymeaus Jalynsfein; 08-04-2015, 04:14 PM.

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  • Elfive
    replied
    Yeah, and that leads one to wonder "why are werewolves not extinct again?" I much prefer a setting in which every character isn't a ticking time bomb.

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  • Tymeaus Jalynsfein
    replied
    Originally posted by Amravanti View Post
    Yeah, but if you attacked other packmates in Death Rage TPKs would just be a thing that happened often. As the Rahu in my group with Predator's Unmatched Pursuit and a whole host of other facets that enhance Death Rage, I know for a fact that I would kill my whole group in Death Rage, whether they matched me form for form or not. Literally they could not escape me or take me down barring Storyteller intervention. Which is cool and terrifying, I certainly don't disagree, but also might be a little too dangerous.
    Which is why, in my opinion, I think 1st Edition's Death Rage is far more terrifying than 2nd Edition's. Succumbing to Kuruth should be something to be highly avoided and never sought. Your example above is exactly why the character I played avoided Kuruth like the plague - One Kuruth and the pack would be dead.

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  • Charlaquin
    replied
    Originally posted by nofather View Post

    Well it's not just that, it's also a fight that is generally going to resolve in a tie or a loss.



    I see what you mean, and I agree obviously that off-screen death is silly, but while Kuruth is a weapon, it's not always one you can control. I'm sure the Pure will have some ability to instill Kuruth in others, some are known for using silver weapons, effectively always triggering you, some of the triggers revolve around other werewolves being on your territory, and sometimes shifting to gauru is the only way to survive some wounds.

    But if you're going to lock-in that combat with a Pure, or even another Forsaken, the drama would be gone. You'd ignore the dog walker because you're fighting the Pure, you'd ignore the police because you're fighting the Pure. You might get arrested afterwards, if for some reason the storyteller decided to have the police wait around until you fell into hishu, but mechanically you're either going to win without agency, lose without agency, or draw with nothing happening.

    The temptation is there, and should be, because gauru is so much more powerful. And some player characters might even like the form, feel good or natural in it, providing the consequences don't pile up. But having it lock you into combat with another gauru is more of a drag than anything else.
    Those just all sound like results I would not have the party wake up to. Sure, by a strict reading of the rules those are the only likely results, but the way I see it, once the characters black out, what happens during that lost time is more a matter of story than rules.

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  • MCN
    replied
    Originally posted by Acrozatarim View Post
    I've actually found the bit way back in dev discussion where Stew went with the idea of death raging werewolves treating each other as being part of the same pack, so I'm surprised at this turnabout! I do have to admit to being concerned because of precisely the original issues that the rule was meant to avoid.
    Why would rival predators be considered pack? Especially when they're triggering each other into a killing rage? That feels kind of strange. Maybe it was dropped because it feels a bit forced?

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