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  • #16
    Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post
    In WtF as written, there's a box talking about how the Pure sometimes include wolves as part of their Packs; in a game with wolf-born werewolves, that wouldn't be restricted to the Pure. Indeed, wolves would likely be a staple of most Packs, with a “Pack without wolves” being the exception rather than the rule.
    Two things. One, it's not restricted to the Pure, every werewolf has access to the Wolf Gifts that let them speak with animals and the ability to bring them into the pack, it's just more common among Predator Kings because they tend to live in the wilds. Which leads to the second point. Wolves are pretty rare, there's supposed to be about 200,000 in the entire world, that's less than the populations of vampires and werewolves in first edition. With none in South or Central America, Africa, or Australia outside of zoos. Even in North America they're uncommon and nonexistent in many places. Even if they are supernaturally gifted wolves, they're going to limit your playing areas.

    I'm not saying don't do it or anything but as someone who doesn't understand why, I'd like to know what it's all about.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Ana Mizuki View Post

      (Sadly, most Apoc games involve wolves rarely XD )

      The idea how it would go, mostly. How would it make the uratha different, when they lean closer to the wild than human,etc.

      Also, Ephsy, that guide is pretty old. Even WtA's take on lupus has changed.
      I couldn't find the one Mark Reig Hagen typed up for Red Talons Revised edition.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Ephsy View Post

        I couldn't find the one Mark Reig Hagen typed up for Red Talons Revised edition.
        Thing is, Red Talons do not stand for all of wolfborn. They are basically what Glass Walkers are to homid garou. Extreme version to one side of the duality.


        My gallery.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Ana Mizuki View Post

          Thing is, Red Talons do not stand for all of wolfborn. They are basically what Glass Walkers are to homid garou. Extreme version to one side of the duality.
          The thing is, the text was about portraying lupus, not portraying Red Talons. It was included there because it's the sensible place in which to include it.

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          • #20
            It was Scavenger Wolf, though he wasn't a Firstborn or anything. He did a sort of reverse skin-thieving thing, pretty neat background. I find myself warming to the idea of spirit-turned-werewolf. There's a drastic change of sensibilities, but also loss. You've left the predatory world of the Hisil to the life of a person, providing you don't lean heavily towards Low Harmony. Plus you lose your immortality. Most spirits probably don't get to thinking about how nice it is to be an ageless ephemeral. Huge change, that, especially once you're human enough to realize it.

            Anyways, like I said, I don't get it but I always like seeing what people do with the game. Hope the thread goes well.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by nofather View Post
              I'm not saying don't do it or anything but as someone who doesn't understand why, I'd like to know what it's all about.
              I can only speak for myself, but I just enjoy the symmetry. If certain people sometimes gain the ability to turn into wolves, why shouldn't certain wolves sometimes gain the ability to turn into people? Duality is a pretty significant recurring theme with werewolves, so it feels a little like a lose end for the progression to always go human > wolf and never wolf > human. For all the talk of "Uratha don't have a 'true form', they have five" it sure seems like Hishu is their true form, since they all spend the first dozen and change years of their lives without access to any of the other four forms. If some of them spent those early years in Hishu and others spent them in Urhan, it would feel a lot more... I don't know, complete? That's not the right word but I'm at a loss at the moment.

              I guess it mostly just comes down to "I think it's cool."


              Going by Willow now, or Wil for short. She/Her/Hers.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by nofather View Post
                It was Scavenger Wolf, though he wasn't a Firstborn or anything. He did a sort of reverse skin-thieving thing, pretty neat background. I find myself warming to the idea of spirit-turned-werewolf. There's a drastic change of sensibilities, but also loss. You've left the predatory world of the Hisil to the life of a person, providing you don't lean heavily towards Low Harmony. Plus you lose your immortality. Most spirits probably don't get to thinking about how nice it is to be an ageless ephemeral. Huge change, that, especially once you're human enough to realize it.
                I could see that being WtF's Metis counterpart: neither human nor wolf, and a natural shapeshifter. If you keep the idea of this “Breed” having a physical deformity, you might associate the latter with whatever the spirits Ban was.

                Regardless, I wouldn't do this instead of the Urhanu “Breed”; if I'd do it at all, it would be in addition to Urhanu — and it would be the rarest of the three.


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                • #23
                  So, my opinion on this matter: I've always liked the idea of Lupus/Urhanu, but I've always found the execution unsatisfying. Not to knock Stu's 2e Urhanu conversion, it's definitely a viable way to do it, but it's not the way I would do it.

                  I would start with the form bonuses. It's weird to me that a character born as a wolf would have +2 dexterity and +1 stamina all the time in the form they were born in. I would re-do the form bonuses for Urhanu so that Urhan is their baseline from which the other forms add bonuses and penalties, just like for human-born werewolves Hishu is the baseline.

                  Next, I would look at Harmony. Harmony isn't human at one end and wolf at the other, so starting Urhanu at lower harmony than human-born werewolves doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Harmony is flesh at one end and spirit at the other. So what I would do there is re-do Harmony Breaking Points for Urhanu. Human-born werewolves experience Breaking Points towards flesh when they act like a human and Breaking Points towards spirit when they act like a spirit. Acting like a wolf doesn't really enter into the equation. So, for Urhanu I would leave Breaking Points towards spirit the same, but change Breaking Points towards flesh so they experience them for acting like a wolf.

                  Finally, I would look at Tells. I agree wholeheartedly with Dataweaver that the way to go with Urhanu is to make a wolf equivalent of Wolf-Blooded humans. Personally, I think Were-Blooded would be a really cool name for them. But a lot of Wolf-Blooded Tells wouldn't work very well for Were-Blooded, so I'd make some new ones that fit closer better with wolf-born characters.

                  And that's it. I'd avoid any further changes like giving Urhanu limits or penalties on mental Skills or bonuses on Reaching, because to me that makes them feel less like Uratha that just came at it from the opposite end of the human/wolf spectrum and more like a whole different kind of werewolf.

                  That's my take on it, anyway.
                  Last edited by Charlaquin; 03-02-2016, 03:20 AM.


                  Going by Willow now, or Wil for short. She/Her/Hers.

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                  • #24
                    So, a few things.

                    First off, Ancestry is a good replacement for Breed, in my opinion.

                    Secondly, verifying an idea, for an Urhanu, acting like a wolf is a break towards the Flesh. They should start at Harmony 7, as anyone else. Keep The mental stigmas. I'm fairly cool with them having greater resonance with the spirit border, but I also dig sharpening some of their senses (as if a werewolf needed sharper senses, I know).

                    Your ideas for the Ulle'u (Forsaken Metis) are best captured by the extremist endings of Flesh or Spirit and are better left to that. I would keep the Ulle'u more or less as is, except I'd get rid of the acting breaking points and instead tighten up the time schedules for being one or the other, while offering some bonus to shifting.

                    So, all this said and done, why, beyond the cool factor?

                    Well, because both games talk about ecosystem. Apocalypse was more about how we disrupt the ecosystem of areas, but Forsaken is about being a part of it. Forsaken they may be, but in as much as there are natural orders in this Sundered WorldTM, the Uratha are part of it. The thing of the matter is, with the different Ancestries, we all have our own biases and perspectives that we need to move away from. The Hishu Ancestry allows new players to be the outsiders looking in on the Forsaken life and the world of the spirits, while the Ulle'u allow people more comfortable and experienced with it to provide the outsider view of normal humanity's view of this ecosystem. It's playing Forsaken in different ways.

                    So, what about the Urhanu? Well, ostensibly, it allows us an opportunity to challenge our norms and then bring our findings in conflict with other people at the table. The Urhanu is removed from the cycle that the Hishu and Ulle'u can argue around in, and therefore can intellectually and spiritually challenge and stimulate the other players.

                    The trio of Ancestries allow for different dialogues in relation to Forsaken's ideas and themes-to be part of a larger cycle of (super)nature while most of that cycle seeks to shove them out. To be the outsider on the inside, in many ways.

                    Not a whole lot more to say.


                    Kelly R.S. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
                    The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
                      Keep The mental stigmas. I'm fairly cool with them having greater resonance with the spirit border, but I also dig sharpening some of their senses (as if a werewolf needed sharper senses, I know).
                      I can kind of get the limitations on mental Skills just because they aren't educated the same ways humans are. But I still don't like it. If human-born Uratha gain the instincts of a wolf, why wouldn't Urhanu gain the conscious reasoning of a human? Sure, they haven't spent their early years in a school, but let's not limit character backgrounds by saying that automatically means they can't take mental Skills as primary. What about the Urhanu who became fascinated with human academia and spent years studying after their First Change so they could eventually take the GED and try to get into a human college?

                      The greater ease of Reaching I just don't understand, especially if you're establishing that for Urhanu, being a wolf is as much a part of the flesh as being a human is for human-born. If being a wolf doesn't bring them closer to the spirit side of things (which I agree it shouldn't), why would they have an easier time crossing between spirit and flesh? I'm not necessarily opposed to the idea, I just can't see any impetus for it.

                      Further sharpened senses I'm definitely opposed to. Human-born Uratha already have wolf senses. Why would an Urhanu's wolf senses be stronger than a human-born's wolf senses? They're both the senses of a wolf. Are Urhanu's human senses weaker than human-born's too? Why or why not?
                      Last edited by Charlaquin; 03-02-2016, 12:52 PM.


                      Going by Willow now, or Wil for short. She/Her/Hers.

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                      • #26
                        The ease with which they breach the gauntlet almost seems to be an Apocalypse throwback, where Lupus were naturally better at crossing because it went off Gnosis and they got the most at chargen by default. Doesn't make quite so much sense here.

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                        • #27
                          I could see that Urhanu just use their Urhan Attributes as base - and maybe go from other side of Harmony, on level 3. I would also do not limit them on Mental Skills. Maybe give them a bit better senses but make them a bit more fragile? Or make them more pack-dependent than even Hishu Uratha?


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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Elfive View Post
                            The ease with which they breach the gauntlet almost seems to be an Apocalypse throwback, where Lupus were naturally better at crossing because it went off Gnosis and they got the most at chargen by default. Doesn't make quite so much sense here.
                            That would explain why it was lost on me. Seems like something that would be better off going the way of Klaives.


                            Going by Willow now, or Wil for short. She/Her/Hers.

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                            • #29
                              I think the problem here is you lot are relying too heavily on the flesh. So the wolf aspect of the uratha is mostly symbolic, aye? Then perhaps this "wolf" breed is of the first borns children? I see no reason why that's cant work. Fenris-ur has a child with x spirit and for some random ass reason it can also be of shifter stock. He is of father wolfs blood after all.

                              Y'all keep saying duality and mentioning the hisil, I'm surprised this hasn't come up before (far as I can tell). Never mind that this eliminates a large portion of the lupus issues (intellect, beastiality blah blah blah).


                              WoD-Dark Eras!! (Backed for Viking Age Werewolf)

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                              • #30
                                I notice we keep coming back to this... was this such a great mechanic in WTA? Not that I dislike the idea, but out of all the werewolf concepts, this comes up almost as often as the hot Uratha love making threads before the devs said werewolves could lay the pipe without worrying about evil wolf spawn. It always surprises me XD.

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