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  • #61
    Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post
    Erm... Not so much. The strix aren't ephemera, but they're not really solid either. And like I've been saying, it seems Pangaeans are all godlike in their own right (potentially with a Host of offspring), rather than running the gamut from Muthra to Ilusahim. I've long been a big supporter of the Strix as the Owl Host interpretation, but this Era pretty much disproves it, in my opinion.
    They could be of something else. Not Owls, but Darkness.

    I like the Belial's Brood theories, personally. The Adversary.

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    • #62
      It does say that they are, however, true natives of the Pangaea. Their natural weapons even count as banes for all Pangaeans.

      Originally posted by Gods of Pangaea, p. 58
      Though similar to spirits, Pangaeans are — along with werewolves — the true natives of the Border Marches.

      ...

      A later section also refers to werewolves as "Native Predators" of Pangaea. This also makes sense: as half-flesh, half-spirit creatures, a realm that blends both seems perfect for werewolves. Distinct from their progenitor god, different from the Hosts, werewolves seem better adapted for the duality. Perhaps their grounding in mortal flesh gives them that edge, or allowed them to adapt to a changing world. And these make for interesting theories and possibilities. What makes werewolves different? Why did they survive?

      For example, even if in many ways they are "Wolf Hosts," werewolves behave differently than other Hosts. Why? Possibly because it wasn't simply Father Wolf's essence scattered among lesser vessels. The Plague King and Spinner Hag didn't beget a new race, they just spread themselves across a legion of lesser progeny. But however it happened, the Pangaean Wolf God created a new race, rather than shattering his own soul. Now, of course, some theories contradict this, suggesting that Urfarah grew weaker with each generation of werewolves. But that may have been a time-based thing, or a result of his many battles, proving even gods are not eternal. Contradictions and impossibilities make mythic histories fun, anyway.

      I like the idea that werewolves are, in a way, the only true surviving Pangaeans who maintain any purity of their original essence. They haven't transcended flesh and blood to become creatures of living myth, nor have they become wholly like spirits. They remain werewolves, one of the last living legacies of the Border Marches. If they still survive, perhaps one day Pangaea may return, as well.

      (I'll be exploring ideas like that in my own game.)


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      • #63
        Originally posted by Claire Redfield View Post
        What makes werewolves different? Why did they survive?
        While the Beshilu and Azlu Hosts seem to spawn from a single source, Uratha and the Gudthabak have other patrons. The Moon and the Sun, respectively. I don't recall much of the other 'Wayward Cousins.'

        I like the idea that werewolves are, in a way, the only true surviving Pangaeans who maintain any purity of their original essence. They haven't transcended flesh and blood to become creatures of living myth, nor have they become wholly like spirits. They remain werewolves, one of the last living legacies of the Border Marches. If they still survive, perhaps one day Pangaea may return, as well.

        (I'll be exploring ideas like that in my own game.)
        That sounds like a fun one. I really want to play up the Pangaean aspect in my own games, but in scope the plots and concepts never really get too far beyond 'Tier 2,' and this seems like a larger scope game.

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        • #64
          I think somewhere along the line here, my message got misinterpreted. My initial intent was not to point out a parallel between the Uratha and the Hosts, but rather to point out a difference I observed between Pangaeans and Spirits, to elaborate on Dave's explanation of them being "like spirits, but made of physical matter and native to Pangaea". That said, this is an interesting line of discussion, so I'm happy to continue it.

          Originally posted by Claire Redfield View Post
          It does say that they are, however, true natives of the Pangaea. Their natural weapons even count as banes for all Pangaeans.

          A later section also refers to werewolves as "Native Predators" of Pangaea. This also makes sense: as half-flesh, half-spirit creatures, a realm that blends both seems perfect for werewolves. Distinct from their progenitor god, different from the Hosts, werewolves seem better adapted for the duality. Perhaps their grounding in mortal flesh gives them that edge, or allowed them to adapt to a changing world. And these make for interesting theories and possibilities. What makes werewolves different? Why did they survive?
          I guess I just have a different idea of what the word "native" means. I'll buy that they are Pangaean in origin, and that it's their true home. I suppose any further distinction is just me being pedantic.

          Originally posted by Claire Redfield View Post
          For example, even if in many ways they are "Wolf Hosts," werewolves behave differently than other Hosts. Why? Possibly because it wasn't simply Father Wolf's essence scattered among lesser vessels. The Plague King and Spinner Hag didn't beget a new race, they just spread themselves across a legion of lesser progeny. But however it happened, the Pangaean Wolf God created a new race, rather than shattering his own soul. Now, of course, some theories contradict this, suggesting that Urfarah grew weaker with each generation of werewolves. But that may have been a time-based thing, or a result of his many battles, proving even gods are not eternal. Contradictions and impossibilities make mythic histories fun, anyway.
          Oh yeah, what fun would it be if the answer was as simple as "they're the Wolf Hosts"? You've got to keep some kind of mystery to it, which is why to me, the similarities between the Uratha and the Hosts just make the differences all the more intriguing.

          Originally posted by Claire Redfield View Post
          I like the idea that werewolves are, in a way, the only true surviving Pangaeans who maintain any purity of their original essence. They haven't transcended flesh and blood to become creatures of living myth, nor have they become wholly like spirits. They remain werewolves, one of the last living legacies of the Border Marches. If they still survive, perhaps one day Pangaea may return, as well.

          (I'll be exploring ideas like that in my own game.)
          Oh, I fully agree. I just don't see "Pangaean" as necessarily meaning "native to Pangaea," just as Chinese doesn't necessarily mean native to China.


          Going by Willow now, or Wil for short. She/Her/Hers.

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          • #65
            Among other things, I think I am going to have a Pangaean that lies slumbering in stasis awaken at some point, and a shift to the general metaphysical landscape. Something like the Gauntlet acting weird (already the Rat and Spider are at war in the city), and perhaps the fearful tremors of something approaching. The Gauntlet beginning to expand could be part of that, especially in response to the emergence of an actual Pangaean.

            I'm also going to tie it into the Saurilu, my Forsakenized versions of the Mokolé from Apocalypse, though probably not in that same game. But it's something I want to write up some day.


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            • #66
              What rank Pangean is Father Wolf? We know what Luna is, after all.


              I am no longer participating in the community. Please do not contact me about my previous work.

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              • #67
                Considering the Pangeans are described as pillars of the world, I'm not sure rank is a easy thing for them past 5.


                Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
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                • #68
                  Originally posted by Leetsepeak View Post
                  What rank Pangean is Father Wolf? We know what Luna is, after all.
                  Given that the existance of Pangaea itself seems to be directly linked to Wolf's existance, I would feel comfortable saying he's the highest Ranking Pangaean. I don't know that I'd put his Rank at 10, but I certainly wouldn't Rank any denizens of the realm he created higher than him.


                  Going by Willow now, or Wil for short. She/Her/Hers.

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                  • #69
                    I had an idea that in the far future when Earth is gone, Luna flies through space as the Vampire Moon. Tunnels and caverns dug through the moon are homes for the last of the Uratha, crowded with relics of other worlds and long-dead civilizations. There's only one Firstborn left, bound and mostly helpless but revered for its sacrifice and gifts. They're infiltrators and raiders when they can be, as the moon passes near solar systems, they find loci and powerful but dormant spirits on other planets and bring the Essence back to fuel their home and god and parent. Sometimes they've come across alien races but Luna is their only home and hope.

                    The best of the best are chosen to be taught a special rite by the Firstborn. It sends them back to a time when the Uratha were at their strongest. Once there, they harvest Essence directly related to Luna, tearing brands of renown from their ancient, ancient ancestors and calling the sacred hunt on Lunes. It takes a while for them to sort of find a niche to fit in, but once they've gained a few Primal Urge they are basically like other Uratha. They really respect the Forsaken, and view the Predator Kings as contemptible.

                    While they seem savage and cruel, they're trying to get Luna enough energy to survive the end of the universe. The past is done with, and they don't believe anyone really needs it more than them. Luna has assured them it's necessary and worth it.

                    But when it comes to my actual games it's usually much more down to earth.

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Leetsepeak View Post
                      What rank Pangean is Father Wolf? We know what Luna is, after all.
                      He's described as the greatest Pangaean, though by the end of his life he struggled against the Plague King, Spinner Hag, and mightiest spirits. In his prime, he was probably at least as high Rank as Luna, so around 7-8, possibly as high as 9 at his peak. Father Wolf didn't just hunt monsters, he hunted concepts, the literal embodiments of an ancient world's wrath. He himself was the Hunt manifest in lupine form.


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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
                        Considering the Pangeans are described as pillars of the world, I'm not sure rank is a easy thing for them past 5.
                        One thing that I want to explore in my games, and a feeling I'm starting to get, is that Pangaea, the Border Marches, are a shrinking remnant of the "true" nature of the world. That is, all was Pangaea, once, where flesh and spirit inhabited the same lands, Essence flowed as freely as water, and mighty spirits arose in places where myth and meaning manifested as one. The separation between worlds is an unnatural thing, but it began even before Wolf's death. The realm between shrank, but few even realized it or what it meant. Pangaea is the world as it is meant to be, interconnected, not sectioned off and robbed of its vital rhythms. Raw, vital, and pulsing from the lowest microbe to the greatest mountain with living Essence.

                        Then the question becomes: What caused the Border Marches to recede in the first place? When did it happen? Can it be reversed, and what consequences would that have on the mortal world? (Hint: they'd be apocalyptic in scope. But what if that's the way the world is meant to be? How much do you risk, how many do you condemn to death and cataclysmic upheaval in order to "save" the world?)


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                        • #72
                          That's actually sort of what Awakening is about.

                          At least, a common theme in Gnosticism which has permeated a lot of the new World of Darkness.
                          Last edited by nofather; 03-31-2016, 02:28 AM.

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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Claire Redfield View Post

                            One thing that I want to explore in my games, and a feeling I'm starting to get, is that Pangaea, the Border Marches, are a shrinking remnant of the "true" nature of the world. That is, all was Pangaea, once, where flesh and spirit inhabited the same lands, Essence flowed as freely as water, and mighty spirits arose in places where myth and meaning manifested as one. The separation between worlds is an unnatural thing, but it began even before Wolf's death. The realm between shrank, but few even realized it or what it meant. Pangaea is the world as it is meant to be, interconnected, not sectioned off and robbed of its vital rhythms. Raw, vital, and pulsing from the lowest microbe to the greatest mountain with living Essence.

                            Then the question becomes: What caused the Border Marches to recede in the first place? When did it happen? Can it be reversed, and what consequences would that have on the mortal world? (Hint: they'd be apocalyptic in scope. But what if that's the way the world is meant to be? How much do you risk, how many do you condemn to death and cataclysmic upheaval in order to "save" the world?)
                            Hey, let's focus on one receding realm at a time.

                            We still don't know why the Ocean of Fragments started to recede in the Underworld, and that's now part of the canon CofD.

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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Claire Redfield View Post
                              Eh, it's a little blurrier than that. Basically, they seem to "work" better than the Azlu and Beshilu, for instance. They can shift forms at will, and are equally at home on either side of the Gauntlet. The Hosts can't move quite so freely, and the werewolves' metaphysics just seem more advanced. It's more like they are all descended from Pangaeans, but the manner of their descent as well as the nature of their progenitors varies quite a bit. Also, it's implied that the Uratha are actually natives of Pangaea, which is an interesting thought. Their ancestral realm is gone, or at least collapsed into a membrane between worlds. What if you could reopen it?
                              Maybe because Uratha are children of Pangean and Spirit Queen? Azlu and Beshilu sounds like simple children of one Pangean parent and animals of his "family". Uratha are "children" of at least Wolf, Moon and humans. It of course does not contradtict the theory of Uratha progenitor being Idigam also.

                              Originally posted by Claire Redfield View Post
                              , information on the Pangaeans implies that if Father Wolf's heart-soul was found or reassembled and returned to his carcass (which legend says lies rotting in the First Wound), he could be reborn. But would most werewolves want that?
                              How then who? Souless Wolf, looking for his lost Soul, to remake it in to Malejin Tainted Mother Wolf! ( Yes, finally I have mine endgame for Bale Hounds game! )


                              My stuff for Realms of Pugmire, Scion 2E, CoD Contagion, Dark Eras, VtR 2E, WtF 2E, MtAw 2E, MtC 2E & BtP
                              LGBT+ through Ages
                              LGBT+ in CoD games

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                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Dave Brookshaw View Post
                                They're mostly like spirits, but they're solid instead of being made of ephemera. They're the native beings of the Border Marches, the world that sits between the material and Shadow, until Father Wolf's death destroys it and turns it into the Gauntlet.
                                There is also possibility that Pangaeans are connected to Supernal and are survivors from Fall of reality. That;s why they have Arcana and their hearts works as Demesne.

                                Originally posted by Claire Redfield View Post
                                One thing that I want to explore in my games, and a feeling I'm starting to get, is that Pangaea, the Border Marches, are a shrinking remnant of the "true" nature of the world. That is, all was Pangaea, once, where flesh and spirit inhabited the same lands, Essence flowed as freely as water, and mighty spirits arose in places where myth and meaning manifested as one. The separation between worlds is an unnatural thing, but it began even before Wolf's death. The realm between shrank, but few even realized it or what it meant. Pangaea is the world as it is meant to be, interconnected, not sectioned off and robbed of its vital rhythms. Raw, vital, and pulsing from the lowest microbe to the greatest mountain with living Essence.

                                Then the question becomes: What caused the Border Marches to recede in the first place? When did it happen? Can it be reversed, and what consequences would that have on the mortal world? (Hint: they'd be apocalyptic in scope. But what if that's the way the world is meant to be? How much do you risk, how many do you condemn to death and cataclysmic upheaval in order to "save" the world?)
                                Border Marches = Primal Wild? Supernal World?


                                My stuff for Realms of Pugmire, Scion 2E, CoD Contagion, Dark Eras, VtR 2E, WtF 2E, MtAw 2E, MtC 2E & BtP
                                LGBT+ through Ages
                                LGBT+ in CoD games

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