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Unihar - 2E Conversion

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  • #16
    Other anti-Gift idea: What if they can "steal" Gifts/Facets? Such as: using a Gift/Facet on an Unihar causes the Werewolf to lose access to it, and the Unihar to gain access to it (for some duration), or if the Unihar strikes/touches a Werewolf, they can steal one directly.

    Makes them nightmares that get stronger/tougher the longer they are active. Really forces the Pack to employ their non-Uratha members to take the thing down.


    Malkydel: "And the Machine dictated; let there be adequate illumination."
    Yossarian: "And lo, it was optimal."

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Vent0 View Post
      Other anti-Gift idea: What if they can "steal" Gifts/Facets? Such as: using a Gift/Facet on an Unihar causes the Werewolf to lose access to it, and the Unihar to gain access to it (for some duration), or if the Unihar strikes/touches a Werewolf, they can steal one directly.
      Seems a bit much. Maybe if they kill a werewolf they could rip one off, but as a spirit with Numina converted to Dread Powers and other Dread Powers it already has a wide variety of powers.

      Makes them nightmares that get stronger/tougher the longer they are active. Really forces the Pack to employ their non-Uratha members to take the thing down.
      It's too powerful for wolf-bloods and humans, though. And technically it's something you could overcome by numbers, since a unihar is limited through action economy.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by nofather View Post
        Seems a bit much. Maybe if they kill a werewolf they could rip one off, but as a spirit with Numina converted to Dread Powers and other Dread Powers it already has a wide variety of powers.
        This might have been instead of Numina/Dread Powers. <shrug> Just throwing out ideas.

        Originally posted by nofather View Post
        It's too powerful for wolf-bloods and humans, though. And technically it's something you could overcome by numbers, since a unihar is limited through action economy.
        Numbers and coordination. And firepower. Typically, Unihar seems like they might be solo monsters - very specialized against Werewolves, and while still dangerous, less so against other beings.


        Malkydel: "And the Machine dictated; let there be adequate illumination."
        Yossarian: "And lo, it was optimal."

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        • #19
          Though I don't remember who said it (I'll have to check my post history), I believe one person suggested that a 2e Unihar might exist as a punishment sent from the Firstborn or Luna, directed to seek retribution against egregious breaches of the Oath (and not just one specific tenet) or a Tribal ban.

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          • #20
            That seems like a good use for them, as bloodhounds that seek the worst of oathbreakers.


            I'm So Meta Even This Acronym

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Deionscribe View Post
              Yes, I am starting this thread with full knowledge that it could set off a number of bombs for a lot of people on the forums. But that said, here goes....
              No bomb or strong disagreement here, I think it is an interesting mental exercise. I do think the cause should be much more complex than "punishment for werewolves breeding together". Perhaps it may involve that with the additional condition of being too far from the Human side of Harmony, thus still enforcing the "cleave to the human" but now giving it multiple meaning. Or maybe it is all on the mother, she has to be all way on the side of Human on Harmony to avoid this terror if she breeds with another werewolf, so that "she spiritually counts as human". Maybe it is that one of the parents have to maintain a complete imbalance towards humanity during to whole pregnacy. Maybe this horror happens when ever a werewolf that is all the way imbalanced toward spirit breeds at all regardless of partner. The base tropes of "Death by child birth", "Fetus terrible", and for the mother "Body horror" remain applicable.

              Originally posted by Deionscribe View Post
              I have been thinking of putting together a 2E Conversion for the Unihar, which I hope can make them entities that are more complex than just "punishment for two Werewolves mating". So far, I got nothing on the fluff department beyond tying them somehow to Low Harmony as a possible risk for a Werewolf and maybe (on a more far-fetched note) to how Urfarah sired the Firstborn from spirits of the Shadow.

              I do, however, have a few rules and mechanics for possibly handling them...
              Most Unihar are Spirits of Rank 1 to 3, though an extreme few manage to survive long enough to become Rank 4.
              I would change this to 2-4 instead of 1-3 because we are talking about a being who even the weakest should be a multiple pack threat, and when strongest should clear out an area of Uratha.
              Originally posted by Deionscribe View Post
              Unihar treat all Werewolves and Wolf-Blooded as having the Resonant Condition towards them.
              I really, really like this. It seems perfect to fit the spirits nature, and terrifying for
              Originally posted by Deionscribe View Post
              Unihar possess the Twilight Form and Materialize Manifestations for free.
              This seems good.
              Originally posted by Deionscribe View Post
              Unihar possess a number of Dread Powers equal to their Rank.
              I would move this to be a benefit when using the Claiming Manifestation because it seems better suited to portray the Unihar when claiming as even more of a horror to werewolves, and leads to interesting stories where packs of werewolves work very hard to prevent Claiming because it is a major "power up" for the Unihar.
              Originally posted by Deionscribe View Post
              Unihar are immune to all Gift Facets and Werewolf Rites.
              I would rephrase this "Gift Facets and werewolf Rites do not work, provide bonuses, nor other benefit when a werewolf or werewolves are using them in a conflict against a Unihar. This does not affect the Gift Facets or werewolf Rites duration and they work as normal in conflicts which are not with the Unihar." Another way to handle this may be "Unihar are ephemeral beings which are not spirits, but are instead their own unique category. Because they are not spirits that means powers that affect spirits do not apply to them." This would put them out of reach to most of the werewolf's toolbox for dealing with ephemeral beings, which is pretty scary, but doesn't strip the werewolves completely bare of every recourse except physical combat in the spirit realm were there there is no state of Twilight.
              Originally posted by Deionscribe View Post
              Unihar inflict Aggravated Damage on Werewolves whose Honorary Rank is lower than theirs by two.
              I think this would be better if it was instead a range of Harmony that made the werewolf vulnerable to Aggravated damage.
              Originally posted by Deionscribe View Post
              Unihar with the Claim Manifestation enjoy the following benefits.
              --> They merge or separate from their hosts at half the time it takes for other spirits.
              --> They convert all Numina into Dread Powers at the same rate they add in extra Attributes.
              --> They are capable of Reaching through Loci like Werewolves.
              I like this, but would define die pools and shift the dread powers listed above as noted there.
              Originally posted by Deionscribe View Post
              Ban: All Ghost Children are compelled to attack and kill their parents, and anyone related to them by blood, on sight.
              Bane: Silver
              Appropriate.
              Originally posted by Deionscribe View Post
              I'll get back to this another time, but comments, critique, and suggestions are welcome here.
              I hope what I had to say was helpful.


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              • #22
                Originally posted by Pale_Crusader View Post
                No bomb or strong disagreement here, I think it is an interesting mental exercise. I do think the cause should be much more complex than "punishment for werewolves breeding together". Perhaps it may involve that with the additional condition of being too far from the Human side of Harmony, thus still enforcing the "cleave to the human" but now giving it multiple meaning. Or maybe it is all on the mother, she has to be all way on the side of Human on Harmony to avoid this terror if she breeds with another werewolf, so that "she spiritually counts as human". Maybe it is that one of the parents have to maintain a complete imbalance towards humanity during to whole pregnacy. Maybe this horror happens when ever a werewolf that is all the way imbalanced toward spirit breeds at all regardless of partner. The base tropes of "Death by child birth", "Fetus terrible", and for the mother "Body horror" remain applicable.
                I think at least one parent should have low Harmony (Harmony 4-) at the time of conception. But perhaps just as each dot of Harmony below 5 should confer a die for the roll, each dot of Harmony above 6 should do the reverse. That said, perhaps the effects are cumulative if both Werewolf parents have Harmony leaning towards the Spirit.

                Originally posted by Pale_Crusader View Post
                I would change this to 2-4 instead of 1-3 because we are talking about a being who even the weakest should be a multiple pack threat, and when strongest should clear out an area of Uratha.
                Makes sense. We'll go with that, then. Still, I assume newborn Unihar are Rank 1 ephemeral beings? Or would they already start off as Rank 2?

                And yeah, making Werewolves and Wolf-Blooded Resonant to them makes it easier for the Ghost Children to reap misery and pain on the whole lot. So if even one happens to be in the area, there's a chance you might not see it coming until it's too late.

                Originally posted by Pale_Crusader View Post
                I would move this to be a benefit when using the Claiming Manifestation because it seems better suited to portray the Unihar when claiming as even more of a horror to werewolves, and leads to interesting stories where packs of werewolves work very hard to prevent Claiming because it is a major "power up" for the Unihar.
                Maybe. But Idigam happen to have Dread Powers and Numina without needing to Claim anyone (though I do wonder if it's even possible for them to Claim, like normal spirits). That said, I can see that particular benefit requiring more time to work out. But I think we can both agree that such a large repertoire of Dread Powers would make a Ghost Child all the more terrifying for a single protectorate, much less a pack.

                Originally posted by Pale_Crusader View Post
                I would rephrase this "Gift Facets and werewolf Rites do not work, provide bonuses, nor other benefit when a werewolf or werewolves are using them in a conflict against a Unihar. This does not affect the Gift Facets or werewolf Rites duration and they work as normal in conflicts which are not with the Unihar." Another way to handle this may be "Unihar are ephemeral beings which are not spirits, but are instead their own unique category. Because they are not spirits that means powers that affect spirits do not apply to them." This would put them out of reach to most of the werewolf's toolbox for dealing with ephemeral beings, which is pretty scary, but doesn't strip the werewolves completely bare of every recourse except physical combat in the spirit realm were there there is no state of Twilight.
                Your suggestion of making them "not-quite spirits" might be

                Originally posted by Pale_Crusader View Post
                I think this would be better if it was instead a range of Harmony that made the werewolf vulnerable to Aggravated damage.
                Perhaps Harmony 1 to 4? And it would also work off of the Werewolf's Honorary Rank based on Renown? Or maybe an Unihar's attacks are considered to have a damage rating based on how many dots below Harmony 5 they are? Like 1A for Harmony 4, 3A for Harmony 2, etc.?

                Originally posted by Pale_Crusader View Post
                I like this, but would define die pools and shift the dread powers listed above as noted there.
                Well, the basic idea is that the Unihar retains all of its Numina even after it Claims a host (preferably one who is Wolf-Blooded). But yeah, giving them dice pools as described in the Numen Dread Power in the CofD core is apt.

                Originally posted by Pale_Crusader View Post
                I hope what I had to say was helpful.
                It was very helpful. Thanks a bunch, man.


                "My Homebrew Hub"
                Age of Azar
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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Thorbes View Post
                  That seems like a good use for them, as bloodhounds that seek the worst of oathbreakers.
                  Making them the personification (lupification?) of punishment or crime? That would make the Ban more "must kill/hunt/punish breakers of the Oath".


                  Malkydel: "And the Machine dictated; let there be adequate illumination."
                  Yossarian: "And lo, it was optimal."

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Unihar are only immune to Gifts that directly target an effect at the Unihar, but a Gift that creates an item is not countered and the item would still affect the Unihar (a spear made via Gift use would still function as a spear, and is given as an example in Predators), A strength boosting Gift would still boost an Uratha's strength. A Gift that allowed an attack to cause aggravated damage would not affect the Unihar. An Unihar could be forced into a fire created via Gift and would still burn, but the fire couldn't be directed to strike the Unihar directly. No using Catastrophe to call down bolts of lightning to directly strike the Unihar in question. Get that unihar to stand in a pool of water that the lightning strikes, that will effect them.


                    ​Edit, a bit late to the conversation, just adding to the chorus from the previous page.
                    Last edited by Darksider; 05-13-2016, 05:04 PM.


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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Vent0 View Post
                      Making them the personification (lupification?) of punishment or crime? That would make the Ban more "must kill/hunt/punish breakers of the Oath".
                      Make them an Idigam's hounds.

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                      • #26
                        Here's an idea: What if a Unihar was a weapon of vengeance?

                        Let's suppose there is a lost rite that requires two full-blood Uratha to mate and produce a Ghost Child as an unstoppable killing machine that relentlessly hunts its prey. Think Melisandre's Shadow Child from GoT. Because of it's spiritual nature, it wouldn't require 9-months to gestate; instead, it would be born in a matter of days. It would essentially be an abomination in Uratha culture, but one that was created from hatred and despair to serve a purpose rather than because two Uratha wanted to mate. And it's unstoppable bloodlust would not only apply to the targets of it's wrath, but anyone who got in its way. It would also require a consistent source of Essence to sustain itself: the Essence of blood and murder. If these things were not provided, or it's prey somehow managed to elude it's grasp, it would satiate itself on unsuspecting humans, other Uratha, or possibly even attack and kill its own "parents". However, the Unihar could also have a fail-safe built into its rite: its Ban is its "parents" and they have the power to destroy it once its purpose is fulfilled. Maybe even one parent is required by the rite to sacrifice themselves to feed the Unihar to make it strong, while the other parent remains alive to destroy it.

                        EDIT: Also, imagine what would happen if both parents were dead, and it was left up to your story's pack to defeat the Unihar.
                        Last edited by Nuwisha Nutjob; 05-13-2016, 07:59 PM.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Nuwisha Nutjob View Post
                          Here's an idea: What if a Unihar was a weapon of vengeance?

                          Let's suppose there is a lost rite that requires two full-blood Uratha to mate and produce a Ghost Child as an unstoppable killing machine that relentlessly hunts its prey. Think Melisandre's Shadow Child from GoT. Because of it's spiritual nature, it wouldn't require 9-months to gestate; instead, it would be born in a matter of days. It would essentially be an abomination in Uratha culture, but one that was created from hatred and despair to serve a purpose rather than because two Uratha wanted to mate. And it's unstoppable bloodlust would not only apply to the targets of it's wrath, but anyone who got in its way. It would also require a consistent source of Essence to sustain itself: the Essence of blood and murder. If these things were not provided, or it's prey somehow managed to elude it's grasp, it would satiate itself on unsuspecting humans, other Uratha, or possibly even attack and kill its own "parents". However, the Unihar could also have a fail-safe built into its rite: its Ban is its "parents" and they have the power to destroy it once its purpose is fulfilled. Maybe even one parent is required by the rite to sacrifice themselves to feed the Unihar to make it strong, while the other parent remains alive to destroy it.

                          EDIT: Also, imagine what would happen if both parents were dead, and it was left up to your story's pack to defeat the Unihar.
                          I am loving that idea. It could be another way for Unihar to appear in the world (aside from unions of low Harmony Werewolves and couplings with spirits and wolves), as well as another reason for the Ghost Children to be reviled in Uratha culture. Said rite could definitely be taboo knowledge, and even possessing knowledge of it could get an unfortunate Werewolf marked for punishment, or even death.


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                          • #28
                            Setting up a GDoc for my ideas on the Unihar Conversion. Feel free to add in your suggestions for me to go through.


                            "My Homebrew Hub"
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                            The Kingdom of Yamatai

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                            • #29
                              With zero knowledge of this thread, a few weeks ago I developed an idea for how unihars could turn up in 2e, & built a plot hook around it. The plot hook is on the thread for werewolf plot hooks, the main thread for that. Can't remember which page, but it's a recent-ish one.
                              In designing the unihar, I focused more on how it came to be & concluded that there was an inherited curse that afflicts certain bloodlines of werewolves. Should an Uratha with this curse mate with another Uratha, the result will be an unihar.

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