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  • Stranger Bedfellows and other weird pack members

    I am reading the pack book and i would just like some help please . First question i wanted to ask is how are other supernatural counted in as pack members? Do they get totem benefits and can they buy the totem merit as well? Second question is about wolves and it is the same question really. Final question is referencing the stranger bedfellows blurb on page 59 in the packs book. Like how would you run a pack that has a to use the examples there. A ghost pack member or a strix/angel totem instead of a spirit from the shadow? Sorry if these are dumb questions, but i would just like some help .

  • #2
    Finish reading the book you're holding? It pretty much goes into details.

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    • #3
      Yeah but i was looking for a more short explanation and it does not actually say anything about the totem related questions. The final question is only touched in that blurb and it is why i asked how others would do it if they were to do it

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      • #4
        A strix couldn't be a totem, ordinarily. For a variety of reasons. But a Storyteller can do whatever they want. Maybe it 'possessed' a spirit, or the pack is made of Dead Wolves. Either way, the motivations of strix are expanded upon in Blood & Smoke. I bet they could have a nice rivalry with the Temple of Apollo.

        An angel would have to be built for it, so it would likely act more like a spirit totem. Angels aren't just created randomly, they're tools created for a specific purpose. If that purpose is being a totem to a pack of werewolves, the most efficient way to go about that would be to be as spirit-like as possible. I don't know which of the Demon supplements expands on angels past the core.
        Last edited by nofather; 08-10-2016, 02:54 PM.

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        • #5
          well the demon core book along with the storytellers guide is really enough for it,, but think about how clever of a twist that would be. Like you have the pc pack working for the god machine without them even knowing it.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Caedus View Post
            well the demon core book along with the storytellers guide is really enough for it,, but think about how clever of a twist that would be. Like you have the pc pack working for the god machine without them even knowing it.
            Many people think that's what's happened to the Lodge of the Field, with Lycaon instead of an angel.

            But werewolves don't work for the totem, unless it's a particularly dominant one and they're just followers for some reason. Usually the pack is another member of the pack.

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            • #7
              well the angel in question would i assume be perfectly designed for this task...which means pack influence could be a thing in it's arsenal

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              • #8
                Hmm. Could a Demon masquerading as a Spirit (via Ephemeral Cover) act as a Totem, or is there some missing requirement that the Demon wouldn't be able to fulfill?


                Malkydel: "And the Machine dictated; let there be adequate illumination."
                Yossarian: "And lo, it was optimal."

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Caedus View Post
                  well the angel in question would i assume be perfectly designed for this task...which means pack influence could be a thing in it's arsenal
                  Not sure if you could mind control a pack into making you their totem. It might be able to slip into the role by offering them something they want, but it would likely have to be something really big or a long-term goal.

                  It might be easier to do what they did with Lycaon, whether or not the God-Machine was behind it. Simply offer a spirit or werewolf something it wants and back it as long as it gets the pack to do what the God-Machine's goal was.

                  Originally posted by Vent0 View Post
                  Hmm. Could a Demon masquerading as a Spirit (via Ephemeral Cover) act as a Totem, or is there some missing requirement that the Demon wouldn't be able to fulfill?
                  I think like the strix it's the sort of thing that would require a special Storyteller caveat, like the demon having been a fallen version of an angel designed to be a werewolf totem or otherwise inherently chained to werewolves or the Hisil somehow. It doesn't seem like ephemeral cover makes the demon into a specific spirit, just a sort of spirit in general, which would raise a lot of red flags, especially if the demon switched to an alternate Cover and suddenly the totem bond disappeared because there's no totem spirit anymore. It would also be very risky for the demon to do, since werewolves have a lot of supernatural abilities that sniff out what and where you are, which would require a lot of spoofing and at some point that's bound to fail, statistically.

                  I admit I don't know that much about the mechanics of Demon and this is just from knowing werewolf and looking up Cover and Ephemeral Cover.

                  I'm big on the idea that 'anything can happen.' And the writers and developer seemed to have embraced that as well. But sometimes it's only going to happen through some special confluence of events that the storyteller generates. Which is fine, because every game has a storyteller who can do that, even if mechanically something seems like it wouldn't work.
                  Last edited by nofather; 08-10-2016, 03:38 PM.

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                  • #10
                    well pack influence like other spirit/ephermeral influences lets you manipulate the object of your influence. It is actually in the pack book

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Caedus View Post
                      well pack influence like other spirit/ephermeral influences lets you manipulate the object of your influence. It is actually in the pack book
                      Yeah, it's developed after a long period of being with the pack, not making them join. Part of the problem of the strength of totems is the pack can decide to give it up, which would cripple said totem.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by nofather View Post
                        I think like the strix it's the sort of thing that would require a special Storyteller caveat, like the demon having been a fallen version of an angel designed to be a werewolf totem or otherwise inherently chained to werewolves or the Hisil somehow. It doesn't seem like ephemeral cover makes the demon into a specific spirit, just a sort of spirit in general, which would raise a lot of red flags, especially if the demon switched to an alternate Cover and suddenly the totem bond disappeared because there's no totem spirit anymore. It would also be very risky for the demon to do, since werewolves have a lot of supernatural abilities that sniff out what and where you are, which would require a lot of spoofing and at some point that's bound to fail, statistically.
                        Oh, it would indeed be risky for questionable payout. I was just wondering if Totems have to be Spirits, Ephemerals, have required Ephemeral traits (like Rank or Influence), or merely be Ephemeral-like. I don't think the Pact Bond would disappear, since Demons are their Covers at all times, so the Totem would still exist (even if it couldn't be found). And, yeah, they'd have to Spoof pretty hard, but wouldn't the Pack stop checking after a bit?


                        Not that there are any free Temakhs floating about, but would one of them fit for a Totem, in theory? What about the Deceived's spirit in Neter-Khertet?


                        Malkydel: "And the Machine dictated; let there be adequate illumination."
                        Yossarian: "And lo, it was optimal."

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                        • #13
                          Anyway with angels i would point out that they are designed from the start. Therefore it can come with the pack influence since it has been carefully constructed for it's purpose.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Caedus View Post
                            Anyway with angels i would point out that they are designed from the start. Therefore it can come with the pack influence since it has been carefully constructed for it's purpose.
                            It could be designed to present an enticing offer to them, to be something they might all want, but I don't believe it could just start with Influence: 4 Black Moon eXtreme. Angels are designed but not perfectly. If it could just be created to mind control a pack indefinitely, then it wouldn't need to pretend to be the totem and could just do so.

                            Originally posted by Vent0 View Post
                            Oh, it would indeed be risky for questionable payout. I was just wondering if Totems have to be Spirits, Ephemerals, have required Ephemeral traits (like Rank or Influence), or merely be Ephemeral-like.
                            It really seems like they have to be spirits, but exceptions can be made. Lycaon, for instance, acts as a totem for his 'pack.' Apollo, who I believe is or was a Pangaean, may at least not be a spirit. Certain creatures can sort of become spirits, a strix through synthesis or a powerful mage through a legacy, even werewolves. Since these are fringe concepts they're not really covered well in the books, but as you can tell there are strange things in the world of darkness and the published books don't contain all of them.

                            And, yeah, they'd have to Spoof pretty hard, but wouldn't the Pack stop checking after a bit?
                            Most of the abilities are not directed. They check everything around it, providing the totem was nearby, in some cases just within their territory, it would force a spoof. It's not about werewolf players constantly checking on their totem, which would be silly unless it started seeming wrong. It's always possible that for whatever reason a pack might not have any of those abilities.

                            Not that there are any free Temakhs floating about, but would one of them fit for a Totem, in theory? What about the Deceived's spirit in Neter-Khertet?
                            I'm unsure on their ephemeral heritage. They do seem like spirits, though.
                            Last edited by nofather; 08-10-2016, 05:32 PM.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by nofather View Post

                              It could be designed to present an enticing offer to them, to be something they might all want, but I don't believe it could just start with Influence: 4 Black Moon eXtreme. Angels are designed but not perfectly.
                              I mean, I'd say it could with enough of Project, but why? From an out of game perspective, what is the goal? Is this a player werewolf pack? do the players want to be controlled by an angel? Do the wolfs think they took the time to build it up but it actually happened all at once? is that the story? Cause otherwise what is actually happening that it would matter?


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