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Psions and Scale

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  • #16
    Originally posted by werlynn View Post

    I’ve never seen anything about guns raising scale automatically.
    Page 74 TC core book scale table mentions guns under scale at scale 2

    “2 Formidable. This is someone or something that is especially talented at or customized for the task, or just larger and more powerful than the baseline. For example, a chess grandmaster, an elephant, a horse, or a gun.”

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    • #17
      While looking at page 74 in TC core the Character Tier chart would make it seem if nothing els that Psi powers do function at a base Scale of 2 and proxy at a base of 3.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Bunyip View Post
        As a shift to what I’ve said earlier, the example under ‘Combat and Scale’ on p.109-110 in Trinity Core pretty much says psions gain the Scale Enhancement bonus when fighting Tier 1 humans. They’ll also suffer this when fighting Tier 3 novas and Aberrants.

        That seems more logical then

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        • #19
          I find the idea that guns in general are tier 2 quite distasteful and unnecessary when they could just be granted a base enhancement of 3 instead of 1. The fact that there’s no other mention of guns blanketly granting scale 2 makes me doubt that as being true.

          I also have mixed feelings about psions getting scale 2 just for being psions. They’re supposed to still be humans, not supermen (-persons, whatever). Aim with a gun or ability to punch or throw or wrestle or play chess shouldn’t improve unless it’s related to a use of their psi powers.

          I thought scale was going to be a great mechanic but I’m finding it to be pretty disappointing.

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          • #20
            From what I remember you are limited to applying the damage tag once per level of scale and only once the critical tag. Guns are scale 2 because they are designed for a single narrow focus as well as being able to kill a standard person in one shot. If not you would always need to shoot someone at least twice before you could kill them. Makes for a pretty shitty snipper.
            I personally see it as psions only counting as a scale 2 for use of their powers/target numbers on rolls. They would not get the scale/emhancemt boost on most things but it does pivot their powers into the realm of leathel for mundane people as well as makes them a touch more resistant possibly to aberrant attacks.

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            • #21
              It also shows the lethality of weapons as the chart shows
              Scale 1 a fist
              Scale 2 a gun
              Scale 3 a big big gun
              Scale four anti tank weapon

              So if a single human target gets hit by a anti tank round they can take four standards catagoroes and at least one crit category while having 3 levels of scale difference between anti tank and human level for 6 enhancement. So it pretty much properly ensures the human is minimum red chunks possibly a fine red mist.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Bunyip View Post
                As a shift to what I’ve said earlier, the example under ‘Combat and Scale’ on p.109-110 in Trinity Core pretty much says psions gain the Scale Enhancement bonus when fighting Tier 1 humans. They’ll also suffer this when fighting Tier 3 novas and Aberrants.
                Do Talents count as Tier 2 for these purposes, or do they default to Tier 1 unless they’re spending Inspiration on Extraordinary Effort?


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                • #23
                  Originally posted by glamourweaver View Post

                  Do Talents count as Tier 2 for these purposes, or do they default to Tier 1 unless they’re spending Inspiration on Extraordinary Effort?
                  Since the relative Scale table (p. 74) places Talents at Tier 1, I’d say so.


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                  • #24
                    Guns are not required to be scale 2 in order to kill someone because the average someone is trivial. Having more health in this game seems basically like narrative protection for people more significant to the story who a sniper isn’t permitted to “one shot.” They’re more like Fate conditions than old Storyteller health box hit points. The Fate DNA in this game is super obvious.

                    Making talents blanketly worse at combat runs counter to the statements in Æon that they could be comfortably run along side psions. Making psions blanketly better than all humans at combat makes them super humans, which they’re not supposed to be.

                    There’s also no sort of benchmark for the “you’re a kung fu master so you get to be scale 2” to allow that to be consistently applied to the game and the PCs.

                    I wish one of the system’s developers would chime in. I was excited about the system until the ambiguities of scale. It’s like biting into a Reece’s Peanutbutter Cup and finding the peanutbutter is mashed peas instead.

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                    • #25
                      Personally I've fine with Psions being minor level superhumans as long as its applied in a consistent and logical manner.

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                      • #26
                        I think between Fuzzy's comment, logic, and story's sake, Scale isn't really all that difficult to figure out. Psions arent supposed to be "Superman", but both vita and biokinetics seem to be able to pull off Captain America without a hitch. Add in the Prometheus chamber's boost, and every Psion is already at peak or near peak human in a couple of areas. Add in powers, and Id say vs "some guy" they would get scale without issue and said mook would only have the one condition box. I'd run talents as being of lower scale in areas where they dont have knacks/boosts. A ministry would gain scale in mind stuff over a physically based talent, and a vitakinetic pumping themselves up would gain scale physically over a talent with a mastery over languages. But i'd hold it off if the characters being compared are apples to apples. Chet Strongjaw is able to hang with Captain A-medic-a physically...ex: Rumlow vs Cap in Winter Soldier elevator. Rumlow lost, but Cap wasn't all roses and puppies fighting him and his stun stick.


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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by ManBearPig View Post
                          I think between Fuzzy's comment, logic, and story's sake, Scale isn't really all that difficult to figure out. Psions arent supposed to be "Superman", but both vita and biokinetics seem to be able to pull off Captain America without a hitch. Add in the Prometheus chamber's boost, and every Psion is already at peak or near peak human in a couple of areas. Add in powers, and Id say vs "some guy" they would get scale without issue and said mook would only have the one condition box. I'd run talents as being of lower scale in areas where they dont have knacks/boosts. A ministry would gain scale in mind stuff over a physically based talent, and a vitakinetic pumping themselves up would gain scale physically over a talent with a mastery over languages. But i'd hold it off if the characters being compared are apples to apples. Chet Strongjaw is able to hang with Captain A-medic-a physically...ex: Rumlow vs Cap in Winter Soldier elevator. Rumlow lost, but Cap wasn't all roses and puppies fighting him and his stun stick.

                          But that's not how scale is described to work. Baseline Psions get a scale advantage over talents in general according to Bunyip.

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                          • #28
                            I apologize in advance, as I know that comparing Scion to Trinity shouldn't be expected to be 1 to 1, but since this seems to be a base system type thing, it shouldn't be too controversial.

                            Origin has a similar example in the combat section under "Scale" only instead of saying it applies to all actions, it says "most physical actions" for the Titanspawn. The second part does say all actions though, even though it is Scion on Scion instead of Baseline. Huh.

                            Fake edit: looking at Hero, I guess the sample character in Origin is supposed to be an awakened Scion... still...

                            Real edit: Scion doesn't have Tier difference equaling Scale by default, from what I can see. So potentially moot.

                            This really makes me think that the Example on 110 is in error, as the entry on 74 heavily implies that scale only comes into play when specific powers are levied, although that might still mean that Psions get scale on their powers.
                            Last edited by MoroseMorgan; 01-14-2019, 05:13 PM.


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                            • #29
                              Generally, any power that grants Scale indicates that the power is beyond human ability. This can be from equipment, but yes, Psions and Scions get Scale.


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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Neall View Post
                                Generally, any power that grants Scale indicates that the power is beyond human ability. This can be from equipment, but yes, Psions and Scions get Scale.
                                When applying a power, or as a general rule? Baseline/Mortal tries to punch them, does Scale apply even if no specific power gets used to defend?


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