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  • Scale question.

    A base mundane person is scale 1 and a newly activated psion is scale 2. We know this does not change target umbers yet. However does this change speed? Lifting? Are all psi powers classified as scale 2 for base? So a fire blast, TK punch, electrical bolt or laser do scale 2 damage base?
    There is also a mention of humans being a scale 1 but possibly being scale 2. So I would guess if a character was a normal human the happened to have a high degree of martial arts training that may convince the story teller they are actually a scale 2 level?
    I like the scale system for how it represents degrees of power however it seems to be a little under explained on when and what moves someone along the scale lines.
    I would love a bit of clarification.

  • #2
    For the most part, the answer is ‘don’t worry too much about it’.

    Breaking that down a bit, p.73 of TC Core says In cases where the significantly greater size, speed, power, or other characteristic of one entity would help it accomplish a task before or against another entity, that entity receives two or more successes as a Scale Enhancement..

    So, for your first question above, most of the areas comparing the psion to the human aren’t significantly greater size, speed, or power. Barring psi power use, the psion isn’t “significantly” faster than a baseline human. Barring power use, the psion isn’t “significantly” stronger than a baseline etc.

    Anwering your second question - psi powers are already out of league for a baseline so scale doesn’t need to come into play. I talked about this over in the Psions and Scale thread (http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/m...ions-and-scale). A baseline can’t fire blast, TK punch etc so you don’t need (or get) the scale over them. Having the power is enough.

    One area that psions likely do get the scale benefit over baselines is the Inflict Damage stunt. Against a character of a lower Scale Tier, psions should be able to purchas the Inflict Damage stunt extra times equal to the difference in scale. Personally, I would include this for psi powers. You don’t get Enhancement for your fireball, but fireballs are deadly - you can buy more Inflict Damage. This then applies to your next question - exactly. If a baseline (Tier 1) opponent had spent their life training in some martial arts, boxing, possibly even a full body contact sport, the SG could be persuaded to count them as Tier 2 for combat and be on more equal ground with the psion. Fireball’s still going to hurt, but the psion can’t buy as much damage with one hit.


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    • #3
      Scale remains too ambiguous and very arbitrary. You said scale doesn’t apply to throwing a fireball at a neutral because neutrals can’t do that. I don’t see why you’d apply it to extra damage. What makes a psion’s laser better than a laser pistol laser?

      Does the psion get scale for defending against a laser pistol blast with an energy field? If a tier 2 tank shoots a tier 2 laser blast at the same psion do they defend as if they’re tier 2 against the tank? If it’s different why?

      What if a telepath uses mind powers on an aberrant that has no mind powers? Does the aberrant get scale for defending themselves? Why? That seems the same as using mind powers on a neutral where by your argument scale would not apply because neutrals don’t have mind powers.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Bunyip View Post
        For the most part, the answer is ‘don’t worry too much about it’.
        If that's the case, my question is why have humans and Psions have different scale in the first place?

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        • #5
          Originally posted by MegaZarak View Post

          If that's the case, my question is why have humans and Psions have different scale in the first place?
          This is how I feel. Make them the same scale and call out when a power raises their scale. Some do already.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by MegaZarak View Post

            If that's the case, my question is why have humans and Psions have different scale in the first place?
            My guess is it’s less about creating a gap between them as it is about narrowing the gap between Psions and Aberrant/Novas, and emphasizing the strength and importance of Psions against their onslaught. Giving Psions some Scale in combat lessens any advantage of Scale the Aberrant has (probably still has a Scale edge, but not as much as over Baselines).


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            • #7
              Originally posted by glamourweaver View Post

              My guess is it’s less about creating a gap between them as it is about narrowing the gap between Psions and Aberrant/Novas, and emphasizing the strength and importance of Psions against their onslaught. Giving Psions some Scale in combat lessens any advantage of Scale the Aberrant has (probably still has a Scale edge, but not as much as over Baselines).

              Since Bunyip stated it's not actually the case it's a moot point I suppose. Human < Psion < Aberrant/Nova

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              • #8
                Originally posted by MegaZarak View Post


                Since Bunyip stated it's not actually the case it's a moot point I suppose. Human < Psion < Aberrant/Nova
                That’s consistent with what I said. Giving Psions Scale 2 makes them only one less than Aberrant Scale instead of two less - lessening but not erasing the Aberrant advantage. The fact that it gives Psions one Scale over baselines is comparatively an incidental side-effect.


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                • #9
                  Bunyip's other posts don't make them sound like an authority on the system. I don't regard their posts any more "officially" than anyone else who's read the PDF.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by werlynn View Post
                    Bunyip's other posts don't make them sound like an authority on the system. I don't regard their posts any more "officially" than anyone else who's read the PDF.
                    That's absolutely fine and I'm not claiming to be an authority on the whole Storypath system - I'm still working out all the nuances of how it works as we go as well. But what I do have is a year head start on most people and that I was closely studying the system to see how it works, twisting and pulling to see how it responds to different pressures. I did this so I could write around three-quarters of the systems AEon bolts onto Storypath and around a quarter of Aberrant's systems. I also got to see how some very talented writers built their rules around the core system to bring a lot of fun to our audience. So I can speak with some authority on what the intent was behind some rules. Not the core rules - they were laid down before I got here - but some of what came later. Whether intent matters to how you interpret what is written and run with it is entirely up to you and your table - death of the author and all that.

                    I also readily admit that my opinion on how things work can change. I'm not a politician, I don't feel any need to doggedly stick to what I've previously said in the face of more information and differences of opinion. Storypath is a flexible system which twists and pulls to allow it to work for a lot of different settings and nuances. The system is now exposed to the world who are playtesting it with vastly more feedback than the designing play tests could ever realistically manage - gamers with different expectations and ways of interpreting things, who have a lot of great questions.

                    So, when I originally say that my interpretation is that Scale generally only applies in areas where there's a comparable quality between tiers, that's how the psi system was designed. Psions already get a lot of Enhancement breaks in using their powers, they don't need another +2 when electrocuting humans. (And they can already access the Inflict Damage stunt twice with their powers, so they're going to zap hard.) If you want to give them the Enhancement as a flat bonus to save having to think too hard about it, I can see the argument and that's fine - it shouldn't break the system - they'll just succeed more powerfully than before.

                    Consider this though. A nova is Tier 3 and a baseline is Tier 1. (Heck, even Talents are Tier 1). Picture a celebrity artist nova with no physical Mega-Attributes and all his skills and powers are completely tied towards creating amazing paintings and drawings. Say he gets into a fight with a baseline art critic and they get into a fist fight. As a Tier 3, the nova artist can already access Inflict Damage three times against the baseline (four if you count Critical). This character is in no way superior to a baseline in being able to fight, but he can technically kill the baseline in one hit because of the Tier difference. That's fine. The question is - does it make sense to give him +4 Enhancement towards purchasing this instant death simply because of the Tier difference? Maybe if they both have absolutely no skill, and are therefore comparable, but what if the art critic has some training in self defence. Does the artist get the Enhancement to outclass the critic even though he has no idea what he's doing? That's the kind of question running through my mind when I think about the intent of the system versus other interpretations of how it's written. Personally, I generally go towards saying the nova doesn't get +4 Enhancement. He's already benefiting from the reduced Target Number and access to inflicting way more damage anyway.

                    But the system supports it and may have been how the original designers intended it to work. Unfortunately, the wording's vague in some places and a contradictory in others, so we're having these discussions here.
                    Last edited by Bunyip; 01-13-2019, 06:57 AM.


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                    • #11
                      I apologize if my comment seemed like some sort of intended insult or challenge. I can't say, "their signature says they wrote something and there they are in the credits" because Bunyip doesn't appear in the credits. You're welcome to anonymity—I am not posting under my real name and I won't deny anyone else the same—but anonymity is one of the prices of anonymity. I'm not asking you to tell me who you are in the credits. What I do wish is that both Trinity and Scion had better, clearer examples of applying and not applying scale, and that maybe one of those core system designers would chime in here on intent.

                      I agree with what you're saying here that they don't need a bunch of extra enhancements given the many enhancements they already get with their psi powers. I don't think they deserve blanket scale bonus all the time. Heck neither do the proxies. They get a power for each mode that jacks up their capabilities enough as it is on top of the big enhancement bonuses plus a lower target number.

                      The discussion of scale between the 2 games (Trinity and Scion) talks about applying when specific things grant an advantage like human vs cheetah or car or centaur in a foot race, or arm wrestling a gorilla. Specific clear situational advantages. If it wasn't for the chart saying "Aberrants are scale X, Proxies are scale Y, Neutrals are hosed, etc." then the other section saying scale only applies when appropriate would make scale clearer.

                      I also have an issue with the idea of guns generically all being scale 2. I could see specific guns being scale 2 like a vehicle mounted gun or an anti-material weapon, but not your average hand gun. That's just a tool that both enables you to use aim to make ranged attacks, and provides its own enhancement bonus already. It doesn't also need scale.

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                      • #12
                        Not related to tiers, only scale. Let’s say the heroes are fighting a T Rex in a dinosaur island (Adventure! Stile).
                        This Trex is a size 2 (it is a bit longer than a buss, but not the size of a comercial jet), have a natural weapon (Deadly, Brutal bite) and a tough hide (Soft 2).
                        If the heroes use a heavy weapon it lose the +3 enhancement as it is the same scale as the target?
                        If yes to the last question, it becomes a assault rifle with long recharge time, so it’s better to use a regular assault rifle, as there is no extra complication on the Inflict Injury stunt.

                        I see 2 possible solutions:
                        1: add a +2 soft armour to the Trex against size 1 weapons.
                        2: limit the injuries it can cause to Bruised, Injuried and Maimed but can’t take it out with scale 1 weapons.

                        I like this second option, as it limit 2 scales bigger to Injuried but no Maimed, 3 scales to Bruised but not Injuried and 4+ scales to not even bruised (what is the standard assumption).

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                        • #13
                          If the weapon is specifically the same scale as the target the weapon loses nothing. If the t-rex is scale 2 for its toughness because of its size then an anti-tank weapon with a +2 enhancement that is also a scale 2 weapon gets its +2 enhancement against the t-rex and scale is ignored because it isn’t different. It’s enhancement is just its enhancement regardless of scale.

                          Same gun vs Dinos The Dinosaur Tamer (no extra scale) benefits from its higher scale and gets the additional enhancement bonus on top of its base enhancement. Don’t get shot by a gun designed to take out vehicles.

                          A scale 1 ordinary rifle with +2 enhancement against the same t-rex would face the t-rex’s scale in the form of increased defense for the dino. Trinity fails to mention the 1/2 bonus to static values but I assume it was an oversight that errata will correct. Personally I’d probably add the dino’s bonus just to the cost of the injury stunt instead of defense because it’s just harder for tiny bullets to harm it, not harder to hit and harass and distract with annoying stings.

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                          • #14
                            Ugh comparing the scale charts between the two games is awful. Why on earth were the core Storypath rules rewritten instead of copied? The only thing that should have been altered were examples that were not thematically appropriate. 😐

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by werlynn View Post
                              Ugh comparing the scale charts between the two games is awful. Why on earth were the core Storypath rules rewritten instead of copied? The only thing that should have been altered were examples that were not thematically appropriate. 😐
                              The core book chart with the listed character types is probably going away before final publication. It’s just confusing things.


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