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  • Superscience without the Big Three?

    So can you actually get super science without one of the Big Three, Flux/Psi/Quantum?

    Like in Psion even normal humans have super science compared to modern times but they also were guided by a history of prominent Novas, Psychics bolstered by Alien Conspiracies, and secret Talents.

    The books say aliens have inevitably gone towards Psi or Quantum, with some spatterings of Flux.

    But what if an Alien species ignored all those? What if it was just rare but some civilizations do sometimes not tap into Psi or Quantum? Or is it Flux is always assumed to be with genius and groundbreakers?

    I mean is this kind of what that Alien Coalition is, except they are more ex-Psi. But they use mundane science to make genetic modifications.

    So what about just really advanced super science?

    If I made an Alien AI race do they have to be one of the big three?

    And what about multiversal beings like in Adventure where other universes temporarily overlapped, what about another universe with no Quantum or Psi as we know it but that still has super science or even Super Beings?

    Like what if some Marvel Mutants were stranded in the Trinity Continuum, they aren’t Quantum, they could just use the mechanics. Or are you saying they would retroactively become Quantum Beings?


    It is a time for great deeds!

  • #2
    The Continuum is kind of like the Many Worlds Interpretation of Quantum Physics: events in one timeline differ from those in another branch (so you could have a timeline where Novas are treated like Marvel's mutants instead of receiving the celebrity treatment they get in Aberrant), but the underlying physics are always the same: so you're not actually going to have Marvel's mutants in the Trinity Continuum. If you bring them in from outside the Continuum, all bets are off; but I'd be more inclined to think that either their powers would fail them (because their powers rely on the Marvel Multiverse's physics) or they'd continue to work as normal (because the TC's physics are compatible enough to allow them to keep working). I would not expect their powers to suddenly become Quantum-based.

    As to your main question: remember that in TC, Super-Science can be Advanced, Inspired, or Powered. Inspired and Powered Super-Science depend on the Trinity forces (Flux for Inspired Super-Science, Quantum or Psi for Powered Super-Science). As such, the real question is whether or not the Trinity Continuum includes any exotic physics in it other than those embodied by Quantum, Noetics, and Flux. If it doesn't, then Advanced Super-Science is restricted to what real-world physics allows (though it can posit drastic improvements in engineering); if it does, then Advanced Super-Science could potentially make use of these more exotic physics.

    But even if it doesn't (which I suspect is the case*), there's the potential for Advanced Super-Science to accomplish some remarkable things. The Anima setting looks like it's going to be an example of just how far Advanced Super-Science can go.



    * The reason why I suspect that this will be the case is that Quantum, Noetics, and Flux already cover a lot of ground; I find it hard to imagine something with the veneer of science that couldn't be fit into one of those boxes.


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    • #3
      Can you give me a page reference for where Flux is identified as a third force distinct from Psi or Quantum?


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      • #4
        It's all over the place in TC:Core. Pages 13 and 17 describe Flux as “the energies created when two close worlds in the Continuum collide with one another”, and it's singled out later on p.17 as the basis for what Talents can do. Unless you believe that Noetics and/or Quantum phenomena are based on worlds colliding, this essentially makes Flux something distinct from Quantum and Psi.

        Of course, TC:Æon then goes and confuses the issue by talking about Quantum Flux; but it's pretty clear that it's taking about a different thing than what TC: Core refers to as Flux.


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        • #5
          Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post
          It's all over the place in TC:Core. Pages 13 and 17 describe Flux as “the energies created when two close worlds in the Continuum collide with one another”, and it's singled out later on p.17 as the basis for what Talents can do. Unless you believe that Noetics and/or Quantum phenomena are based on worlds colliding, this essentially makes Flux something distinct from Quantum and Psi.

          Of course, TC:Æon then goes and confuses the issue by talking about Quantum Flux; but it's pretty clear that it's taking about a different thing than what TC: Core refers to as Flux.
          When I’ve brought it up before i’ve been explicitly told by writers there is no distinct type of energy associated with paramorphs and Inspiration. “Flux” is presumably a catchall the core uses because it doesn’t go into the Quantum/Psi distinction, which fits with how AEon uses “Quantum Flux”.


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          • #6
            It might not be so much an energy then and just a phenomena.


            But even with real world physics we can hypothetically do some Nutzo stuff. Fusion for all the energy you need and advanced minuscule computers, and advanced applications of magnetic fields.

            Flesh brains roughly operate at the speed of sound but robuts fiber optics operate at light speed thought.

            While you can’t break the speed of light we know you can approach it, and with advanced lasers in the void you can achieve 99% the speed of light by aiming powerful lasers as photon highways. And you can even move stars with enough lasers. And powerful applied magnets can even harvest materials from a Star.

            A whole lot fits in conventional scientific theory.

            Though you would be limited in Nanite tech compared to the grey goo in sci fi. But even cell sized machine factories can be amazing, you don’t need atom sized machines. And 3D printers are still limited in what they can make since you can’t go so fast without friction speed ruining everything.

            So advanced engineering with greater then Graphine materials can simulate some super strong robots, and fiber optics helps with super speed and awareness.


            It is a time for great deeds!

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            • #7
              Originally posted by glamourweaver View Post
              When I’ve brought it up before i’ve been explicitly told by writers there is no distinct type of energy associated with paramorphs and Inspiration. “Flux” is presumably a catchall the core uses because it doesn’t go into the Quantum/Psi distinction, which fits with how AEon uses “Quantum Flux”.
              You asked for page references. I'll give you those, and cite the text:
              Characters such as Talents harness flux and open wider these dimensional barriers, taking advantage of nearby possibilities. Whereas characters like novas and psions shun flux, and reinforce their own realities by imposing their wills on the world around them.
              — Trinity Continuum p.13
              Talent: People who have had a moment of Inspiration and are now able to innately harness flux to their advantage.
              — Trinity Continuum p.17
              Inspiration is the flux that surrounds a Talent, fills her, and lets her tap into energy that allows her to perform extraordinary feats.
              — Trinity Continuum p.149
              Flux is used by Talents; it is shunned by novas and psions. Novas and psions do not shun Quantum or Psi, respectively (although each opposes the other); and Talents do not use either Quantum or Psi. As well:
              Flux is the energy that arises when two parallel dimensions come into close contact with one another. Flux is generated any time two realities exist at the same time. Better put, when someone or something breaks the normal flow of events and probability, flux occurs.
              — Trinity Continuum, p.13
              flux: The energies created when two worlds close within the continuum collide with one another.
              — Trinity Continuum p.17
              Flux is the inherent energy that exists in the space between worlds. This reality is not the only one; in fact, there are multiple universes in which people and places exist in a large continuum of parallel worlds. Flux is the matter that holds these together, and any time something happens to manipulate or transcend the worlds, a flux event occurs.
              — Trinity Continuum p.149
              So, in summary:

              • Quantum is the energy that empowers novas
              • Psi is the energy that empowers psions
              • Flux is the energy that empowers Talents
              • Quantum, Psi, and Flux are all mutually exclusive

              In the Trinity Universe, there was only Quantum and Psi, collectively referred to in Adventure as Telluric Energy. As well, the status of Daredevils was murky: one creator claimed that they were subconscious probability manipulators, while the other claimed that they were “merely” extraordinary people who benefitted from pulp action tropes. But the Trinity Continuum has changed that: it has firmly placed itself on the side of Talents messing with dimensional barriers, and it has introduced Flux as a new type of energy that empowers Talents but not novas or psions.
              Last edited by Dataweaver; 01-26-2019, 06:50 PM.


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              • #8
                It also says that Aeon Society have a way to identify Talents from extraordinary regular people using systematic tests. It is not on the genes with the same marks as psions and aberrants, but possibly it shows up for Nihonjin scientists as if they are somehow different from regular humans (that’s why failed Superiors became talents, maybe they were “not erupted” talents).

                Aeon have a way to detect flux, maybe not with the same precision, so they need to do a lot of tests to make sure the readings are correct, but in the end they can tell if it’s an extraordinary mundane or a real talent.

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                • #9
                  That may simply be a matter of statistical analysis: a positive outlier in a statistical sample is more likely to be a Talent.


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                  • #10
                    I’m wondering about more one off character types, I know the setting has it the origins of your powers come from one of the big three but we could use different types of the big Three, like Superiors as a local variant of Novas using a supersoldiery project. So my not something like bloodlines or clans of Psychics, as in families that cultivated Psiad potential.

                    Or a full on Cold War Government Psychics or Super Soldier Programs.

                    And how do we know Mercer is a Talent? From an outside perspective if I found out he was an immortal time traveler I would think he was a Nova.


                    It is a time for great deeds!

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                    • #11
                      Mercer is a Talent Tier 3 basically. That’s written somewhere in the Secrets appendix from Aeon. You don’t know anyone is a Talent, at least not for 100% sure. So Max is a Talent because they say so, because he is not a psionic (psion, psiad, Mesmerist) not a Superhuman (nova, superior or stalwart), because the other 2 can be detected easily by their pears.

                      And for the first question, yes, Superiors, Stalwarts, Psiads and Mesmerists all have access to super science on the same level as Psions and Novas. In fact, in Adventure there is a good chance you can find a super human that the only power is to create and handle super science, I may be wrong but the main scientist from Adventure era was a super human with only the power to build supertechs and smoke and drink on superhuman quantities without dying.

                      Edit: Fisrt page, middle of first paragrafe
                      It also gave far more impressive powers to the three people who were closest to the device when it exploded. Michael Donighal, who would later be known as Divis Mal, gained an unusual degree of Quantum powers; the mysterious Max Mercer became an exceptional- ly powerful Talent who possessed a limited ability to travel through time; and Dr. Hammersmith’s brilliant Indian secretary Sara Kaur, who would eventually be known as Dr. Saraswati Kaur Bhurano, developed unusually powerful noetic powers.
                      Last edited by Mateus Luz; 02-05-2019, 06:10 PM.

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                      • #12
                        More specifically, the idea is that three people got supercharged by the Hammersmith Event, one for each type: Sara was supercharged by Noetic Energy (Psi), Dr. Primorius was supercharged by Quantum energies, and Max Mercer was supercharged by Flux.

                        The thing is, Mercer isn't a Talent — just like Sara isn't a Mesmerist and Dr. Primorius isn't a Stalwart. Mercer is to Talents as Novas are to Stalwarts and Proxies are to Psiads: he's an example of what happens when the ability to tap into the Continuum gets supercharged to the point that you become unstuck in time — and he's possibly an example of what you get when someone gains a measure of conscious control over Flux. He's what Talents could be.


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                        • #13
                          Well I got the Impression Sara and Donighal started at Adventure level just immortal. Like Sara seemed hella low level till she detonated her corruption cleansing Noetic device. And Divis Mal just seemed to slowly rise from Stalwart level, and possibly got a boost from his Quantum wave project to finally bring him to Nova or he became nova level on his own through experience or maybe a practice experiment on himself before making his worldwide Version.


                          It is a time for great deeds!

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                          • #14
                            Donighal was already a Nova by all standards (in 1e he is described as having all the dinamic knacks and a few others) in late 20s, but he was not corrupted.
                            I would say Sara is quite powerful, probably the most powerful psiad ever existed. Psiads are slow in developing power if you compare to novas, she probably has psi 4 after the accident, and was on 6 by 2104, and she had powers in several aptitude’s, probably Vk, Pk and EK, and learned Qk after 2104.

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                            • #15
                              Damnit 3rd time I misclicked and ate my post tonight!!!


                              Okay it makes sense for Sara to be that mighty and start out all Beefed out with Psi. But I don’t think the books ever talk about her being that mighty early on. And they never seem to indicate she is leagues ahead of the other 8 progenitors of the Psion orders. Though it might be because her history is a setting secret. But they seem to Indicare the 8 Progenitor Psions are roughly Equal.t just seems like a guess she was strong early on. But I don’t think we have mention of that being a fact.

                              And Donighal just seems like a beefy Stalwart Early on, which makes sense since he was the First. But later on when Novas erupted he seemed to have some that rivaled him in power even though he had like a Century of experience over them. And that one Scion who was known as the most potent on Earth that was his rival, he only beat in one of his later victories after he rose his Quantum up a level and this opened up his powers to a new Horizon. Before that he had folks that could rival his capabilities.


                              It is a time for great deeds!

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